Of ATMs, iPhones… and 9/11?

I will be on the Dori Monson show today at Noon (Pacific Time). If you’re in the Seattle area, you can tune into 97.3 FM. On the internet you can listen from their website. To use their in-browser player, you will need to have Microsoft Silverlight installed (gross) or use Windows Media Player (also, gross). Alternately, you can use their streaming MP3 in any decent audio application (iTunes, I’m looking your way). You can call in toll free at (888) 973-5476. You can email into the show through their website, too.

Also, you can email me directly (veganstraightedge@gmail.com) or on Twitter you can send me a direct message (if I’m following you) or @reply me.

I wrote an update that hopefully answers most the looming questions that commenters have.

Two Loomis Employees Refilling an ATM at the Downtown Seattle REI

Today I was shopping at the downtown Seattle REI. I was about to buy a Thule hitch mount bike rack. They were out of the piece that locks the bike rack into the hitch. So I was in the customer service line to special order one. It was a long line and while I was waiting, I saw two of guys (employees of Loomis, as I later learned) refilling the ATM.

I walked over and took a picture with my iPhone of them and more interestingly of the open ATM. I took the picture because I’m fascinated by the insides of things that we don’t normally get to see. I did not take the picture to case the joint. I did not take the picture to threaten the safety of the two Loomis fake cops with their bulletproof vests, hip side pistols and very fragile egos. I did not take the picture to make it easier for anyone else to rob this or any other ATM. I just like to see things that I don’t normally get to see. (Just like when I was in Vancouver, BC with Fall Out Boy, I got to see the stage being constructedand took pictures of it.)

They saw me take the picture. After they were done filling the machine with money, the one with the shaved head came over to me in line and said:

Him
When you’re done over here, come talk to me.
Me
No, thanks.
Him
Don’t try to leave. I will tackle you.
Me
No, you won’t.
Him
I’ll call the cops.
Me
I can’t stop you.

He went back to the ATM and conferred with his partner who was then making a call on his cell phone. My turn came up in line. I went to the counter. While ordering my part hitch lock at the desk, the real story started.

The Loomis guys wanted me to give them my ID so they could write a report about me for their bosses because I took the picture of them and the open ATM. The REI security people that had been called in by now wanted the same thing. I told them plainly that I’m not in the habit of giving my ID to people just because they want it, especially fake cops who put money in box and get to play at being real cops.

Their whole reason for freaking out at me is that they didn’t know who I am or what I planned on doing with that picture. I told them I didn’t particularly care what they did or did not about me or my intentions. All I did was take a picture of two people working with a machine out in the open in front of dozens of people. And besides, I’m sure if you spent a couple minutes searching Google, you could find pictures much higher quality, schematics, hacks… any number of things about ATMs. And again, this was being done in broad day light in front of dozens of people. Hardly trade secrets.

So… back to the Loomis guys, REI loss prevention officers and cops.

We go back and forth about why I took it and don’t see it as a problem versus why they think it’s somehow threatening their personal safety and their property’s safety. They’re trying to convince me to give my ID to the Loomis guys to write their report. I’m trying to convince them to go fuck themselves that I didn’t do anything illegal or otherwise wrong and that Loomis doesn’t have any jurisdiction to compel me to give them my ID. Round and round, over and over. Until…

Officer Debra Pelich (#5976)
Remember 9/11? I saw pictures of those buildings. One time when I was in Florida I was wandering around taking pictures. A security team came up and told me it was a high security restricted area. I wasn’t supposed to be taking pictures there. I explained that I didn’t know that, was a police officer, showed them my ID and complied with them. We cleared it up and I left.
Me (totally baffled)
Since you managed to pull the 9/11 card somehow, does that mean that everyone that took a picture of those buildings—

That was when Officer GE Abed (#6270) spun me around and put handcuffs on me. They took me out the back door to the loading garage, put me in the back of Seattle Police car #805. We sat there for a few minutes then they took me down to Seattle Police Department West Precinct. I sat in a holding cell for about 30 minutes still in cuffs.

After they were done filing their reports or whatever behind their two-way mirrored wall, Sergeant William Robertson came into the holding cell. He said basically all the same things that the Loomis duo, REI head loss prevention officer (Paula), Officer Debra Pelich and Officer GE Abed already said several times. We danced back and forth until I said I didn’t feel like talking around in circles again and asked if we were done.

He took me out of the cell and took off the cuffs, had me sign a “You have been trespassed by REI and can’t go back for a year” form then Officer Abed walked me out the door. And that was that.

A few things that happened that I thought were especially ironical were:

  1. As I was being cuffed another, REI customer took a picture of me and the cops with his iPhone (the same act that started this whole chain of events).
  2. After being worried about me taking a picture of the inside of an ATM, Officer Debra Pelich typed in the code to open the garage door to the police station right in front of me without hiding the keypad at all. Classic.
  3. They never wanted to see the picture or wanted me to delete it. (To me, that says this was never about sensitive information or whatever. It was all about power and exerting it.)

That was my day. How was yours?

By the way, if you’re the guy who took my photo as I was being cuffed, I would love to get a copy of that picture.

Update: I spent a minute googling around a minute this morning and found no shortage of pictures of ATM insides.

Monicomp who sells and services computer related peripherals and tools as well as those related to the banking industry include in their gallery not only the inside of an ATM, but also a printer and a monitor.

Nexus Connection have a picture of the inside of an “ATM” that dispenses gift cards.

CGI Direct ATM who’s been selling ATMs since 1995 has a picture of the inside of an ATM as part of their sales material. (They also provide technical information like how many of what kinds of ports they have, what operating system their running, what processor, etc)

Westfield provides maps with the locations of ATMs in its malls.

Outdoor ATM also has pictures of the insides of ATMs as part of their sales materials for: the Tranax MBS5000, the Qualtex Weathermaster Outdoor ATM, the Triton FT5000 and the Triton FT7000.

Even the manufacturers provide pictures of some of their ATM’s insides: Qualtex’s WeatherMaster insides and more inside slideout tray. Tranax’s Card Dispenser, Ticket Printer, Cencon Lock and Tranax MCDU Cash Dispenser. Triton’s cash dispensers, FT7000 (click the photos tab, then the 7th picture; stupid Flash gallery) and FT5000XP (also a Flash photo gallery, click photos then the 7th picture).

Update 2:

Update 3: My point being in the whole post, but especially the previous two updates, is that there is much more much higher quality data about everything that this was about already freely available… even from the manufacturers. So again, I don’t think this had to do with safety, security or trade secrets, but merely the exertion of power and the protection of its image.

Update 4: The commments have spiraled out of control, of course. So, I’ve switched it to requiring a wordpress.com login (which is totally free). Keep it classy, internet.

Update 5: I wrote an update that hopefully answers most the looming questions that commenters have.

Update 6: Lots of people have been asking if there’s any way to be supportive to me through this. First off, thank you so much for caring enough to care. Second, there are two very different things one could do to me help me out.

  1. Keep an eye on my blog and twitter account for future updates about the incident and where it’s going. Later on I might need a barrage of phone calls made or emails sent. I’m not sure yet.
  2. The other thing sounds really lame saying it out loud in front of other people, but… If you want to help me financially, I design and make shirts with my friend (Bookis). We sell them for $15 each. That would help me out quite a bit. (Sorry for the commercial break.)

Originally published at: http://sbb.me/b3zZ1

376 thoughts on “Of ATMs, iPhones… and 9/11?

    1. You should sue REI and the security company and possibly the police department. It might make these entities think twice about infringing on the next amateur photographer’s civil liberties.

      1. Amateur photographer’s civil liberties??? I couldn’t disagree more. Yes, there is “freedom of speech and of the press” issues here, perhaps, but that doesn’t mean common sense should be abandoned does it? There may not be a law against it, but it is still pretty stupid to point a toy gun at an armed cop. I would advise against it. By the same token, sticking your iphone in a Loomis employee’s face while there refilling an ATM falls in the same general category. You may get a slight giggle out of calling them “fake cops” but they are guys who regularly carry around very large amounts of cash and have loaded weapons that they are trained to use. I’d be a little irritated too, if I’ve got a gun on my hip and stacks of $20 bills in my hands and some long-haired, tree-hugging, birkenstock-wearing, maggot-infested, pot-smoking, liberal little geek with a
        “Atheist. No Gods, No Fucking Masters” T-Shirt started snapping photos of me with his freaking iphone. It seems to me, the gentleman started out very polite. If you had shown the proper respect, I’m sure the matter would have been cleared up right there and then. But you had to pull your little smart-ass, “anarchist” attitude out of your lint-filled faded jeans pocket and make a public scene. A little advice, you mind-numbed little stalinist robot: Don’t poke a hornet’s nest and expect not to get stung. If that’s too cryptic for your closed up little mind to wrap itself around here’s a translation: “Don’t fuck with a guy who has a gun!”

      2. “We’ve got one who knows his rights, sir.
        He says we can’t put him back in the box”

    2. Your a toolbag WTF where you thinking taking pictures of a GD atm. You look like a fool and you were treated like one /spellcheck
      Love
      DR QXX

      1. Dr. Qxx –

        Since you’re a doctor, then surely you must know that “your” is the possessive of “you.” What you meant, I’m sure you know, is “You’re,” the contraction of “you are.”

        Grammar check.

        DR IRONY

    3. And what do our founding fathers have to say?

      “Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security” – Benjamin Franklin

  1. Holy snap Shaners!!! That’s total bull! But I’m glad you’re alright.

    1. Shane: “I got called a douche bag about a godzillion times.”

      No, make that godzillion and one.

    1. i’ll bet he knows ‘ironical’ isn’t a word.

      what he merely sounds like you embody in its fullness.

    2. It certainly is a word, albeit one that’s largely fallen out of usage. Louisa May Alcott was fond of it. But, he does sound like a massive tool.

    3. I suppose we all can enjoy the ironical nature of @sdj’s douchbaggery here.

    4. the fact that you don’t know that he was being ironical makes you look like a douche.

    1. No real power? Dude. If I’m given a firearm and the proper training, and then given the job to safeguard a truckload full of money, that’s all the power I need. This little nerd who’s crying “victim!” needs to grow up and learn that it’s not nice to bother guys with guns and bags full of money. I get a kick out of all you self-righteous, bleeding-heart liberal, anti-establishment losers who walk around thinking you’re better than everybody. If I had been there, I would have tackled him myself and shoved his shiny new iPhone somewhere that he probably would have enjoyed. Especially if it was left on “vibrate.” Goddamn anarchist little brainwashed left-wing mindless robots! You can all go jump in a lake!

      1. Little wannabe 3rd-world dictators are fricking pathetic.

        Try an unprovoked assault on the wrong “hippy anarchist” say, me, and I’ll put you on the ground and pistol-whip you with your own small penis compensation device. Try to shoot it at me, and you’ll be down and out with a double-tap to the CoM.

        And when it comes time for court, *you’re* the one that’s going to jail (or the cemetery, as appropriate).

        Stupid fascists. The gun does not make the man. That takes balls.

        Leave the Rambo crap to the real police. Vigilantes make me sick.

      2. Dear “theist666”,

        a) 666? Really? And you are calling THEM “antichrist” ?? Are you retarded ?

        b) How is taking a picture “bothering” someone. It’s a public place. Are you retarded ?

        c) “anti-establishment” ?? And yet YOU are the one with the “666” username ?? Seriously, dude. You are retarded, aren’t you ?

        d) Had you been there (and fuck-all I wish you were), and you tackled the guy yourself, you would have been arrested. Again, I truly wish you had been there. Next time you see something like that going down, go for it. Please.

        e) “vibrate” ? Yea, buddy ? You are really giving that some thought, aren’t you ? Is that what you like ? Again, I say you really should go for it. Nothing to be ashamed of, mate. In fact, your 666 beastmaster is all about that stuff, isn’t he? 😉

        Sweet dude, you rock. Sign of the beast! You are so rebellious – in a totally retarded, non-anti-establishment kinda way.

        All the best. (Fuck I hate it when people say all the best, cause you know that totally don’t mean it. It’s really just an insulting blow-off.)

      3. Indeed, those guys are licensed armed security officers – with the right to shoot you and kill you if they think you pose a threat to the property they are guarding.

        Instead of just confronting you, they could have shot you to death – and the grand jury would call it a justifiable homicide.

      4. Hahaha… Good one. In reality, a grand jury would have ruled it a homicide, and the licensed security guards would have sentenced to about 20 years in prison.

    2. Actually I said “anarchist” not antichrist you retard! I chose my name carefully, just to tweek all you atheist, amoral, skin-head, neo-nazi automatons. I knew it would bug you. As for “unprovoked assault” — you don’t know what I consider a provocation. Some pompous hippie little geek having more than a passing interest in me and the bags of cash I have with his gay little camera phone would be enough to get my attention. I would first politely ask to speak with him in private. But then if he comes off with a douche bag attitude like our little mister victim, I’d do whatever it takes to diffuse the situation. From the obviously one-sided story we have, it seems the Loomis guy was just doing his job and the retard anarchist did everything he could to provoke a confrontation for the sole purpose of setting himself up as the quintessential “innocent oppressed victim of a thuggish, fascist police state….booo hoooo!!!!! You people make me want to swallow my own vomit. We normal people only need to have patience. Since homosexuals can’t procreate, you left-wing freaks will eventually abort yourselves into extinction. Then the world will be a better place.

      1. Oh right. Anarchist. My bad. Thanks for pointing that out – makes a HUGE difference. Because you are clearly not an anarchist yourself.

        /sarcasm

      2. and by the way… you really seem to be dwelling on this “homosexual” thing. not really sure how it relates to ATM machines and iPhones, but — oh right… now i remember… you were fantasizing about vibrating iPhone buttsex.

        ok, well… whatever floats your boat, mate. it’s a free country. (at least it would be if little pin-dicked security guards weren’t so threatened by iphones. maybe you should introduce them to the joys of iphone buttsex – it might ease their fears. just a thought.)

  2. @sdj: My use of “ironical” was in subtle reference to Good Will Hunting where Robin Williams’ character says it ironically.

    @ian: I appreciate the defense, but let’s all try to keep the comments on point here and not derail into name calling and the comment hell. I really don’t want to have to moderate comments.

    kthx

    1. How does one use “ironical” ironically? To describe a situation devoid of irony?

      1. SEAN – Well, I got this flyer the other day. It says uh…class of ’72 is having a reunion in six months.

        LAMBEAU- Yeah, I got one of those, too.

        SEAN – Why don’t you come, I’ll buy you a drink.

        LAMBEAU – The drinks at those things are free.

        SEAN – I know, Gerry. I was being ironical.

    2. Man, how did we not pick up the subtle reference to Good Will Hunting?

      In any case, a delightful, one-sided account. You want to play journalist-martyr? Call us when you have some proof.

  3. Dude, that sucks. I saw your tweet that you had the cops called on you, but I didn’t think there was even possible that they would arrest you. I guess they didn’t have anything better to do, you know, like catching criminals. 😦

      1. yeah, this this terrible. just terrible. sorry, man.

        ummmm, about that REI dividend you won’t be able to use… How bout I take that off your hands?? No sense in letting the pig keep you hard earned money. 🙂 (jk)

      2. No, you were not just detained. Once you have been detained, 1) you may not leave, and 2) the cop may not transport you. They *have* to arrest you, or let you go.

  4. Shaners, I’m glad that you aren’t in jail for something so silly. Well before 9/11 and even the internet boom, I was told by some security guard that I couldn’t take pictures of the outside of the bank of America building in Midtown. Nothing to do with security, just flexing on a kid with an old Olympus.

    And I will now end all comments with “you sound like a douche.”

  5. Wow. Nothing like “innocent until proven guilty”. No terrorist in their right mind would be that blatant about getting information… about an ATM. People need to lighten up a little.

    My day was fine, thanks for askin’.

  6. If you’re an REI member write to them or use the feedback form on the REI website and let them know how you feel about this. I’ve been a member for 20 years and let them know I was not happy about them treating any customer like this.

    1. I just wrote to them, saying I can easily imagine doing exactly what Shane did. I promised I would not enter any of their stores again until I was assured Shane was apologized to and that I had no fear of leaving their stores in a police cruiser.

    2. “Hello. Re: http://iamshane.com/2009/05/09/of-atms-iphones-and-911/

      I just wanted to let you know that, even though I’ve been a member for nearly twenty years now, as of today I consider myself officially banned from all of your stores for the next year. I have taken many similar pictures over the years, so for your own safety I will refrain from spending any money in your stores for the next year.”

  7. Well technically what they could have done is ask you to erase the picture in the store. Since it’s private property they are the legal owners of the picture.. Or something like that.

    1. Actually, once you take a photo, it is automatically yours—this is what they mean by “intellectual property”. Police/private security have no legal right to ask you to delete it. If they take your camera and delete the photo themselves, that is destruction of property. Police can seize the camera if you are being arrested, but they cannot delete the photo (that would be destruction of evidence). Legally, photography is very well protected… in practice, you’re at the mercy of whatever idiot is flexing their muscles.

      Check out the photography bill of rights:
      http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

      1. In the real world, when you take on an armed security officer or police officer, your “rights” don’t amount to a bucket of warm spit.

        They have guns and the right to kill you.

        Reread what I just said.

        So, if they wanted to, they could smash your camera to bits, and if you objected, they could kill you, and then tell the grand jury you attacked them.

        And the grand jury would rule it a justifiable homicide.

        Again, in the real world, when paper laws meet metal guns – metal guns win!

      2. They *might* have the *power* to kill you. You’re confusing might with right.

        And they *would* be charged and convicted for murder in the circumstances described here. Not to mention the monumental civil penalties paid to the kid’s family.

        And rightly so.

    2. No, they cannot ask you to delete it unless you were in an area you weren’t supposed to be. If you were in the public space that customers normally occupy, any light entering your eyes may be captured and stored on longer-term storage if you prefer.

      This whole “you can’t take pictures” thing is utter bullshit.

  8. I call bullshit. You were tresspassing and told to leave. You ignored them. This wasn’t about photos. It was about tresspassing. Go to Somalia you enjoy anarchy so much.

    1. You didn’t RTFA, did you? He WASN’T asked to leave. In fact, they told him NOT to leave.

      1. RTFA being read the fucking article? or is my mind just too crude to pick up the subtle meanings in that acronym?

  9. Sounds to me like you could get a nice paycheck with the right lawyer(s). You could probably sue all 3 groups of fucktards with some success.

    1. @Not Fooled:

      It’s not bullshit. I was not trespassing. I was an invited customer trying to spend money. I was not told to leave. In fact, I was told in no uncertain terms that if I did try to leave, I would be tackled by one of the Loomis guys.

      Somalia, huh? Love it or leave it? Honk, Shoe.

  10. What utter bullshit. You don’t have to ask for permission to take pictures. The REI people can ask you to stop if they want, it is their property. But they can’t demand that you erase those you’ve already taken. They can ask you to leave and not come back… but they can’t prevent you from leaving. That they would side with their hopped-up security guard brethren (who actually get to carry real guns!) doesn’t surprise me much though.

    As for the Loomis jerks, you don’t have to listen to a damn thing they say. They’re private security guards, not cops.

    Too bad the Seattle cops who showed up turned out to be thugs. But judging from the first Google link that shows up for that sergeant that’s to be expected there.

    See also –

    http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm
    http://injusticeinseattle.blogspot.com/

  11. Did you cancel your order or will you call ahead and ask that REI send a clerk out to the sidewalk to complete the sale?

    1. the sale was not completed. i was handing her my debit card when it all started and the transaction was derailed.

      but i do still have this dividend that i earned and want to spend.

      1. You can get your REI dividend as cash. Call or use their web site and they’ll mail you a check.

    1. That’s all you liberal fags know how to do, is run screaming and crying to your lawyer at the first sign of “oppression.” We live in a society that governed by the excessive use of force. The world is full of shitty people who have nothing better to do all day than to sit and think of ways to hurt innocent people. Guys who’s job it is to drive around in trucks full of money apparently have no problem accepting this fact of life. That’s why they have guns. They are trained to be wary of anyone who looks at them with more than a passing interest. They walk around all day with targets on their backs. Common sense should tell you that you shouldn’t act like a jerk to these people. But all you can do is wag your extra-long index fingers and repeat your programmed mantra “Fascist….thug rent-a-cop….I’m oppressed…..boooo..hooooo…the mean man with the gun yelled at me…..MOMMY…’er…I mean…LAWYER….I’m being oppressed!!!! Call the ACLU!!! SUE LOOMIS……SUE REI……SUE THE COPS!!!!!”

      Honestly, are you people like 12 freaking years old???? Some of you crybabies just need a good ‘ole fashioned ass whoopin on a regular basis. I can’t wait until the day comes when you all hear the words, “Depart from ME ye wicked and pass into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” I’ll be watching with a big smile on my face.

  12. talk to the ACLU. i’m guessing there are a few lawyers in the area who would take your complaint and run with it.

  13. did you contact the consumerist??? i’ve always thought REI was a good company, however this response is complete bs. Unfortunately it often takes the power of a community/site like the Consumerist to get a proper response.

  14. i applaud you for asserting your rights, not shitting your pants, and making a case for doing whats right in the face of danger.

    youre an inspiration.

  15. Your an idiot looking for trouble. Serves your dumb ass right. You tested the laws and you got burned. Stop being a baby about it.

    1. And you are just a dumb sheep, who doesn’t knows what his rights or even the laws are, has no self-respect or dignity, and will give away his own child to be raped to a uniformed pedophile, if the authorities somehow passed a law to make it mandatory .

  16. Wow, stupid lowlife cops. Its punk cops like the ones that “detained” you that I just love to hear about on the naews that get clipped in the line of duty. Scumbags. Seems the US Constitution is clearly a thing of the past!

    RT
    http://www.privacy-web.net.tc

  17. Sue them for false arrest, assault, and emotional distress. If they want to play at being legal eagles, so can you.

    1. The ATM stuffer who threatened to tackle you needs to be brought up on assault charges as well.

      They’re your rights, and you need to demand them.

      I wonder if the EFF would have any interest in helping out.

  18. Gave a little call to REI. The woman at the actual store was great with me. She however transferred me to another woman (at corporate I believe) who was very snobby and sarcastic in response as I told her that as a 3 year member of REI, I would be ceasing to purchase products from them and advising my friends and family to do the same.

    fight the good fight brother!

  19. Shane, wishing you only the best. I am disgusted and dismayed. I would at the very least write the CEO and Consumer Relations dept of REI a letter detailing your awful experiences, and sharing this post.

    I am offended as an American that a cop would even waste his/her time to “detain” you on something so blatently stupid.

    Hope you get at least some sort of sincere apology from REI and their contractors, and that you post it here.

    Best of luck.

    1. The only way to fix these patterns of corporately sponsored misbehavior (imho) is Public Embarrassment.

      May I suggest “REI is Accountable”, at the bottom is a Feedback link.

  20. Unbelievable. You’ve done a great job of documenting what you can and making a strong point.

  21. Ya know what ? These “fakecops” are just doing their job. Part of that job involves carrying large amounts of money. When you do things like watching them closly or taking pictures of them a prudent man could safely presume you are casing them for a future theft or about to pull a pistol of your own, shoot them and take the large amunts of cash they are responsible for.

    Ask me how I know.
    I happen to have first hand experience of just such a situitation.
    Lucky for me I survived.

    Any student of Journalisn 101 knows you can’t start snapping pictures of sensitive place without drawing attention.

    Now you got your panties all in a bunch and its;
    Help ! Help ! I’m being OpppPPPppreeeessssSSSsed!

    Get over it ya crybaby.

    1. Ya know what? Those “fakecops” should be in some other line of business if they are so worried about their “safety”. Watching someone closely, taking pictures is no reason to presume that the person is a criminal. If you took some therapy for your paranoia, you would probably notice that in real world, people watch each other closely, take photos all the time!

      God forbid that our money and security depends on cowards like you, who are so paranoid about their own security, in a job that by definition requires bravery.

      Any student of Jornalism 101 knows that it is perfectly legal to take photos of any place except military installations.

      If you dumb powercrazy idiot bullies are THAT paranoid about your security, maybe you should take sensible steps like wearing masks on the job and doing money transfers during non-public hours?

      What a stupid cowardly crybaby. You don’t deserve your job!

  22. You realize that rent-a-cops like this were probably the dorks and nerds who were always getting beat up in school. They finally grew up in one way, and long for some prick to push their buttons so they can push back.

    Moral, don’t be a dick.

  23. Shane

    I run a photographers’ rights organization and I’ve called all three of the numbers you listed. No one would talk to me about your arrest. I also requested the police report, but was told everything would be redacted because I’m not involve in the case even though the police report is public information. Also, no one would answer the question when I asked them if you were arrested for trespassing or for simply taking a photo in a public space which is protected by the 1st Amendment. If that’s the case this was an unlawful arrest. Can you please request your police report and make it available to the public. I forwarded your incident on to the ACLU.

    1. Discarted,

      If they refused to provide you with a public record, than you have a cause of action against the Seattle PD.

    2. This (unlawful arrest) is exactly what I though also. You were not only unlawfully arrested but falsely imprisoned as well…

      http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Unlawful+Arrest

      I am not a big ‘litigation type’, but I also think that cops need to be held accountable for their stupid ass decision while acting from behind the badge (rent-a-cops included… now days, there isn’t really a difference between the 2… same educational and experience requirements)…

      In my youth, I was detained for nearly 2 hours by city officers in Enterprise, Alabama because of my proximity to some law breakers (with which I was not affiliated – other than through physical space)… The matter was further exaggerated after about an hour of detention, when when I expressed verbally “this [the situation] is fucked up”… The officer went hysterical on me about how if I said another peep, I would be arrested on site for verbal harassment of an officer.

      Obviously, officers are not required to be knowledgeable of the laws and rights that they are sworn to protect (Speech) and when on site with them, as you now know, your rights and their actual duties are not what’s important… their authoritarian control is…

      Long story even longer, you can do as I did and file a claim against the offending officers and hope to get your day in court… In my case, I eventually got stuck with court fees when I dropped the charges… Why did I drop the charges? Cause cops know judges and judges can set and reset your court date as they see fit… Doesn’t help with the accused officer is part time patrolling officer with the Chief Of Holice (who claimed to be unable to believe my claims… you know, since they are pals and all…)…

      But again, I didn’t have the ACLU at my back… Take it to em if you can… Otherwise how will they learn what “to protect and serve” actually means?

  24. First mistake: Shopping at REI. The place is a rip-off and for wanna-be adventurists. Yuppies who think they are outdoor enthusiasts shop there.

    I’d offer to boycott the place, but I don’t even go there because the yuppies make me sick.

  25. Question: Did the police read you your rights when they handcuffed you ? Isnt that illegal detention, if they didnt?

    1. I was read my Miranda Rights when I was in the holding cell and they wanted to ask me a question. I said I understood my rights and waved my right to an attorney at the time. I did so, because it was a simple question.

      1. Mirandizing you after you get to prison is not proper procedure. Wow–just about everything about this situation stinks!!

      2. They only have to Mirandize prior to questioning. One trick they use where I’m from is arrest someone, turn on the recorders, put them in the back of the car, and never say a word. Problem with that is, after the first question, everything is suspect. Not sure about WA, but here in NC, armed couriers (the Loomis people) have no authority to detain or arrest so as soon as he said he’d tackle you for leaving, he communicated a threat. That goes even farther since he’s armed and you’re not. I’d also have a nice chat with the state licensing board can get his license to be an armed courier pulled in a hurry for such acts.

    2. There is no requirement that police intone those words, although some rent-a-cops will speak them (there’s no prohibition on speaking them either) because it’s one of those scripts like “Dearly beloved, we are gathered…” that may signal to some people that they are under arrest.

      If the arrestee is not advised of his right to remain silent, his confession might be suppressible. There doesn’t seem to be any issue with that here.

      (This is Shane’s blog, not mine, but in my somewhat similar story when the security guard got to “Do you understand these rights as I have explained them to you?” I answered honestly “No.” He got all flustered and said “How could you not understand them?” I said “I am not an attorney, although I would like one. I do not understand all the ramifications of exercising these rights.” He said “You don’t have to understand the ramifications.” I said “Well, then based on the legal advice you’ve given me, I suppose I do.”)

      Various commenters have asked what were the charges. It seems to me there were no charges. Shane was arrested but not charged, because upon reflection the cops realized Shane had not committed any crime.

      When Abed said “You have been trespassed by REI and can’t go back for a year” I read that as copspeak for Shane has NOW been given notice that the general invitation to the public to walk right in during business hours (the store is PRIVATE property, but it is a PUBLIC place) has been revoked in his case, and if he were to go there now having received notice it would be criminal trespassing.

      What makes the ARREST (not detention – he was DETAINED when Loomis and Loss Prevention prevented him from leaving) illegal would be if the cops did not have proper reason to believe Shane had committed a crime.

  26. REI have just gone down in my estimation very significantly. I will be looking for alternatives.

  27. REI have just gone down in my estimation very significantly. I will be looking for alternatives. M

  28. I just fired off a complaint via the REI email form. We’ll see what kind of reply comes back.

    Good luck. This really sickens me– especially that the police were more eager to act like paranoid thugs than actually mediate a conflict.

  29. That is false arrest, you can sue. People have no privacy interest in things they do in public. Sue and make sure there is a monetary cost for doing things like that- it is the only language corporations understand.
    The only way they could make what you did illegal is establish that you were engaged in a conspiracy to rob the ATM. That would be the crime.

  30. REI is a co-op, and their CEO is known to be a very reasonable woman. Get in touch with their corporate headquarters. Get a public apology and get removed from the ‘ban’ list.

  31. you HAVE to file a complaint with the police dept. It won’t do anything, but you still have to take the time to do it. Total BS.

  32. Dumb question, but why did you hang out long enough for them to call the cops? REI staff being assholes? Loomis staff being assholes? Go buy your hitch somewhere else and GTFO of Dodge, man!

  33. I guess I am done shopping at REI. And you should be suing SPD and Loomis and REI. If you don’t, then they will continue to act like the thugs they are.

  34. So how can you pick up your special order bike lock when it comes in if you can’t go back for a year???

  35. Why isn’t their behavior (before SPD arrived) considered 1st Degree Kidnapping with Use of a Deadly Weapon???

    Neither they nor the REI people observed you committing a crime. Therefore you were defeinitely held against your will by non officers. THAT’s a crime. Call your lawyer.

  36. Shane

    Can you please tell us what you were charged with? I do not see any mention of the actually charges in your blog post.

  37. I’m not a litigious person, but I’d sue the hell out of Loomis, SPD, and REI. I’m sure you’ll get a settlement, that skinhead may rightfully lose his job, and REI might be more careful about making sure their security teams don’t act like douches.

    I unloaded on REI just now and let them know they lost my business (though I haven’t actually shopped there in about a year).

  38. And your not suing for wrongful imprisonment and unlawful detention why?

  39. bastards.

    Phone: Michael Collins, REI Public Affairs (206)395-5956

  40. Your are such a DB.. I service ATM machines and the last time someone got too close I just maced them, finish the chore I am doing or lock it up and while you are on the ground I take your wallet as a reminder of what a DB you are for being a dick taking photos of people working on ATM. Next time when you go to the airport walk up behind the scanner TSA people and snap their photo’s ( without any introduction ) and will run side bets on just how deep your anal probe will be…
    wow.. you are such a moron..

    1. Really? You assault and steal the wallets of people while you are working?

    2. Amen! I work at a credit union and we work with Loomis. I don’t think people understand how it is to work with money and how desperate people can get trying to rob. Some kids came into my work and filmed me, they were asking stupid question. we had them delete it.

      1. If you are that much of a paranoid coward, maybe you are in the wrong line of work.

        Tell me something moron, what can a person do with a film that he cannot do by just looking at you from the same distance?

        Anyhow, seeing that you have ended up in a low-paying menial job that goes nowhere and has a bleak future, I don’t really expect you to have the intelligence to answer that in any rational way.

    3. While I do think it’s bullshit that they didn’t make you delete it because after all that was the point, I do think you have to take into consideration what it’s like to deal with that volume of cash on a daily basis. They are not rent a cops they, are armored car drivers. I work at a credit union and I have been robbed before I know the stress that goes along with that type of job with so many desperate people out there. They don’t know who you are and what you want. It’s super creepy having someone stand behind you, who you don’t know, watching you with so much cash.

      1. If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. If you are working in a place of business which regularly allows anyone in, you have no expectation of privacy. And while you can ask someone to leave (private property and all) you can’t make them delete what they’ve already recorded. I’ll bet you had to threaten those kids to make them delete the video. You were probably a bully in school too.

      2. If you cannot take the stress, you should just leave. You are obviously not meant for this kind of job.

        Banks in the sensible countries have large money transfers and ATM servicing etc,take place during late hours btw. Try using some sense, if you ever manage to have some.

      1. Thank you! wow I’m glad that guy knows me, because yeah I sure was a “bully” in school being a small girl who was a complete band nerd, played oboe for 7 years, and works as a teller. WTF! Can’t even take any comments on his reply…

  41. i would file a complaint or something. At the very least take them to small claims court (assuming small claims will handle something like this).

    if you didn’t break any laws, they had no right to arrest you.

    1. Well, now, there’s a common misconception. They have no right to arrest you if they have no reasonable suspicion that you *might* have broken a law. If they have probable cause, they have the right to arrest you even if they turn out to be wrong.

      I have no idea whether that was the case here or not, there’s not enough information.

  42. REI caters to outdoors loving types like us – who also love photography. REI aiding thug-like, anti-photo behavior in their store is inexcusable. I’d definately get this over to Consumerist, Boing Boing (they’re big on spreading photographer’s rights stories like this) and seattle media (Kong et al). GIVE REI A SLAP IN THE PUBLICITY NUTS – THEY SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

    Also, you may want to start carrying a copy of the Photographer’s Bill of Rights – http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm – I’ve had good luck in showing this to real cops (no doubt the loomis dweebs would disregard it, but when real police see the laws on paper it can put some sense back into them).

    Finally, SPD is usually much more intelligent overall. I’m really flummoxed as to their reasoning for detaining you – were you charged with anything?

  43. Wait til martial law is enforced; then you’ll be lucky that they just put you in cuffs. By the way, do you still feel that you live in a free country? 😉

  44. Talk about a hullabaloo! I hate rent-a-cops as much as the next guy (especially when they give you a hard time about so much as LOOKING at Boeing’s Kent campus – “Ma’am, this is restricted territory.” “No, the restricted territory is on YOUR side of the fence. THIS is public land.”), but that seems like SPD wasting time on another harmless someone when they could be dealing with the crackheads in Belltown, the transients on First Hill, or the gang violence in SoDo.

    On the off-topic, I see your a blogger and you know Ruby. (This is not me spamming you, I promise) If you happen to be an out of work blogger and Ruby god, you should contact me. We’re looking for a few good men at my workplace with these talents.

  45. The public has every right to know what’s on the inside of those ATMs. How else are we going to know where to drill?

    Seriously though, good work at striking the oppressed pose. I’d like to know where I can send money to help you pay for counseling. Poor poor boy.

    1. He was detained and arrested despite breaking NO law. What part of that is difficult to understand?

      1. I’m not sure what the laws are in Washington state but whining like a little girl SHOULD be against the law.

      2. Let me ask you this: why do you think his being detained and arrested despite breaking no law is obviously litigable?

        It is not a law enforcement officer’s job to determine whether someone has broken a law. That’s the court’s job. The officer must, however, have probable cause in order to arrest someone. Probable cause expressly permits some doubt as to whether the person being arrested is actually guilty.

        Now, it may in fact be the case that a court would side with Shane here and decide that the arresting officer did not have probable cause, in which case he would have been falsely arrested and imprisoned. However, in order to have a suit against the police department itself I suspect you would have to demonstrate that the dept. was negligent in its hiring or training practices in a way that precludes the arresting officer simply being “one bad apple”.

    1. You might find this interesting:
      http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

      Specifically “Property owners may legally prohibit photography on their premises but have no right to prohibit others from photographing their property from other locations.”

      He was inside REI, that means they call the shots. Violation of their policies allows them to say he is trespassing. Hardly fair but what other choice did he give them?

      Cooperating would have solved this. Don’t show the ID, but at least be nice and talk your way out of it.

      1. Unless they had previously posted a sign saying photography is not allowed in the store, they should be limited to asking him politely not to take any more pictures and to leave.He was after all in a place open to the public. I have had this occur in several malls while taking pictures. I stop taking pictures and leave- no problem. Their response of calling the police and having him detained is way out of line and I hope he pursues an apology.

  46. All in all, an appalling incident. I sincerely hope you (and others) will follow up with complaints and litigation if necessary. The individuals involved with the decision to harass and detain you ought to be penalized.

  47. yeah it was about power, and you thought you have ‘power’ to resist huh? LOL LOL LOL

  48. I just wrote to REI demanding an explanation and statement as to how they will rectify your situation. We’ll see what happens.

  49. Shit like this is exactly why I had to leave the Pacific Northwest. You never see stupid shit like this on the East Coast. Cops here have real crime to deal with.

    People are so snobby and uptight on the West Coast especially when it comes to breaking “rules”. I have so many Police harassment horror stories from living there.

    1. That is an interesting point. I’ve been keeping track of events like this. In the last six months there have been 3 instances of blatant abuse by rent-a-cops and real cops that has stirred up a buzz on the net:

      The first was Oscar Grant who was murdered on Jan 01 in San Francisco

      The second was the Naked Wizard who was tazzed many times at Coachella.

      And now this- all three have been in the west coast.

  50. Sue REI and the ATM company. I wouldn’t sue the cops because it’ll just cost the taxpayer, and they weren’t really the first offenders.

  51. What a sad story. Unfortunately, these kind of power trips are played out every day in every state. Many cops live by their own rules and codes, where the ends justify the means and they get to play police, judge and jury.

    We pay a steep price to put an armed vanguard between us and anarchy, but on the whole it is worth it….

    Good for you for standing up for your rights

  52. You can sue the PD for your troubles- get yourself some $$. It’s called a 1983 suit.

  53. It’s ‘ironical’ that you accused the Loomis people of doing nothing but ‘exercising their authority’ when that is exactly what YOU were doing when you took that picture. You did it because you expected it to cause this kind of reaction and then you made your situation worse by acting like an asshole about the entire thing. Who has the problem with authority here?

  54. Anyone who wants an object lesson to reinforce the point of this post need only visit their local department of transportation where the “police” who administer licenses get to have the power they always lack in their private lives.

  55. ur an idiot.
    you shouldnt taken the pic in the first place.
    its because of people like you that people in law enforcement exercise their power to an exaggerated level.

  56. You should sue loomis, REI and the cops for violating your civil rights.

    It’s illegal for the police to arrest people for taking pictures in a public place.

    Call a lawyer that will take the case for free ASAP.

    1. Out of curiosity, what law says its illegal to arrest someone for taking pictures in a public place?

      I’m pretty sure there’s not one. From what I can tell, “false arrest” is a civil offense, not a criminal offense.

      If an officer falsely arrests you then you might be able to sue him (and/or his department) for damages, but it is unlikely he will be convicted of a *crime* unless you can demonstrate that he detained you outside the scope of his duty as a law enforcement officer (i.e. he kidnapped you).

  57. While I do think it’s bullshit that they didn’t make you delete it because after all that was the point, I do think you have to take into consideration what it’s like to deal with that volume of cash on a daily basis. They are not rent a cops they, are armored car drivers. I work at a credit union and I have been robbed before I know the stress that goes along with that type of job with so many desperate people out there. They don’t know who you are and what you want. It’s super creepy having someone stand behind you, who you don’t know, watching you with so much cash. Loomis guys are really nice, just like anyone else

  58. While I do think it’s bullshit that they didn’t make you delete it because after all that was the point, I do think you have to take into consideration what it’s like to deal with that volume of cash on a daily basis. They are not rent a cops they, are armored car drivers. I work at a credit union and I have been robbed before I know the stress that goes along with that type of job with so many desperate people out there. They don’t know who you are and what you want. It’s super creepy having someone stand behind you, who you don’t know, watching you with so much cash.

  59. Reminds me of the guy that stood in front of the capitol building on the sidewalk with two empty suitcases by his side until they tackled him a few years back. Nothing illegal but not a good idea either.

  60. Anarchist with a blog. POSER. Go back to drinking your Starbucks, driving your SUV and living in the suburbs you hack. I hope you enjoy the assrape in prison.

  61. thank you for your defense of freedom. I think its time the abusers be re-educated about their proper role in this country, by any means necessary.

  62. Shane;

    Thank you for sharing your story, and thank you standing up for your rights.

  63. You’re a hero. Those guys are about making a miserable world that bit more miserable. Its weird how you get arrested by responding to Officer Pelich’s knee jerk reaction inducing reference to 9/11. Those people that gave you a hard time are just a bunch of soulless bores and you did well to stand your ground.

  64. you are rather stupid. really what did you think would happen? how did that sound like a good idea?

    1. After skimming through some of the posts what is most disappointing and frustrating to me is that some people think he should have expected to be arrested for this act.

      Certainly some portion of the outcome could have been avoided but this would have required an acceptance that the public servants of the law don’t have boundaries. Possibly they do not.

      Principles are important, at least they are to me and surprisingly enough I don’t find too many opportunities to stand up for them.

      The reason the system is as it is today is because too many people didn’t take the opportunity to stand up for them when they had a chance.

  65. That’s the REI that made me a loyal customer — my first pair of snowboard paints! Time to use up my dividends. I’ll probably continue to browse there, but now I’ll gladly buy it online for 25% cheaper.

  66. Bravo. Thanks for standing up for our rights. You should sue somebody since no laws were broken and you were detained illegally, probably. Anyway, bravo.

  67. Funny how you would accuse the cops of posturing when you were doing the exact same fucking thing.

    /sick of Seattle and it’s butthurt “it’s-about-the-principle” nerd population

  68. I LOVE YOU… SO MUCH!!!

    SOMETHINK LIKE THAT HAPPENED TO ME IN A SUPERMARKET (I’M PERUVIAN) JUST BECAUSE I FOUND FUNNY THAT THEY USED QUOTATIONMARKS TO WRITE KILOGRAMS ON A CHALK BOARD (to be more specific… it was: “KG” what I found funny…), SO I TOOK A PIC OF IT. MEANWHILE I WAS ROUNDED BY 5 SECURITIES OF THE MARKET, TOOK ME FROM THE NECK (like if I was a very bad boy… [well I am but I’m 26]) AND KICKED ME OUT OF THE MARKET… AND IN THE STREETS TOOK MY IPHONE AND DELETED ALL MY PICS… THANK GOD I DOWNLOADED ALL MY PICS LAST NITE.

    I COULDNT DO ANYTHING CAUSE… WELL I’M 5’8, AND I HAD 5 SECURITIES THAT WERE 2 TIMES ME EACH ONE…

    I STILL REMEMBER THEIR FACES… I WILL HATE THEM FOR EVER…

  69. This post isn’t enough.

    You took the picture. The guys did not feel threatened enough to stop what they were doing to address you. Obviously this isn’t about the anxiety these guys experience working with money. If they’d immediately closed the ATM and tackled you, I could go down that road, but….

    At the point they shut the ATM and had no money, you were no threat. The didn’t even feel compelled to pull you out of line. He wanted you to talk to him when you were done. There was no legitimate sense of urgency on their part at all. I’m sure their boss *required* them to get your ID, but you were in no way required to provide it. At the point they started making demands, you becoming a so-called douche bag about it was completely acceptable.

    Did REI ever ask you to leave? I doubt it. The police should not have provided your information to REI. Definitely have your lawyer talk to REI about granting you permission to be on their premises again with an apology from them.

    There was absolutely no basis for an arrest that I can see. You took a picture of a public event, were harassed about it by a person from a private company. A person from a private company insisted on invading your privacy because you took a public picture. A person from a private company unlawfully detained and illegally arrested (and maybe kidnapped) you by telling you not to leave, threatening you with force–you should have called the police then.

    I hope you sue–you should be able to get an attorney to take this civil rights case on contingency. I hope you sue, not because I want you to get money, or because Loomis or REI are necessarily bad companies, but because when we don’t legally enforce our civil rights, we lose them. If there is not a record made, with a punishment, about this violation of your rights, they may not be as nice to the next person. Loomis, REI, Seattle PD and each of the individual players need to pay a price or there will be no disincentive to repeat such an incident.

    Separately, I encourage people to exercise their rights and to take pictures of public events, especially arrests, public menaces, and police doing their jobs. It is you who watch the watchmen.

    1. I agree. I hope he sues and it helps prevent them from abusing others. The guards and the cops should be personally sued. Arresting the guy with the intent to let him go after a half hour is definitely abuse of power.

  70. REI is a cooperative, so you are part-owner. Not sure how you can trespass when you are an owner.

    Might be worthwhile to write REI member service about the incident and ask that they drop the trespass charge.

  71. Rent-a-cops with short dicks arrest a shopper with a camera.

    The is the face of fascism.

    When they take your property, that’s socialism.

    Welcome to America; they only get away with it if you let them.

  72. A very similar case happened in Seattle about a year ago when a guy took a picture of police officers making an arrest. Same thing — detained the photographer for about an hour. The photographer later got the 8 grand or so for the “inconveniences” from the police, and officers in Seattle got a memo that it’s OK to take pictures.

    I think you have a great case to get 10k.

    Good luck!

  73. Well I can see how this guy thinks its funny and cute about lurking too close to people loading an ATM and imposing their person “Public Photo” rights into other peoples business… go and photograph the next ten people just using an ATM and see if you get your ass kicked. If you took a photo of me just taking $20 out of an ATM I would take you phone or camera and actually shove it up your ass and reach down your throat to delete it.
    reminds me of this educational video of getting to close to things that are just not their business. I think he owes REI an apology and the security guard for being a DB.
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/28446/hidden_camera_prank_going_bad/

    1. HEY DAVE, I’M GONNA SHOOT YOU POINT BLANK IN THE HEAD WHILE YOUR BACK IS TURNED AND TAKE YOUR MONEY.

      ARMORED CAR DRIVING PUSSY.

    2. I’d rip that stupid ginger mustache from your face before you had the 20 in your pocket. knucklehead.

  74. From REI, boilerplate reply.

    “We are aware of the incident at our Seattle store in which an individual was removed by Seattle Police. While it’s unfortunate this occurred on store property, the ATM machine is owned and maintained by an independent bank vendor. We did not call the police, detain the individual or request a trespass to be invoked by the Seattle Police. We regret this situation happened, but feel our team acted appropriately under the circumstances and are committed to providing a welcoming and safe environment for all of our customers.

    Thank you for taking time to provide us your feedback. We appreciate the opportunity to respond. For additional information, I’d encourage you to contact the Seattle Police Department.

    If your claim is valid and true, I urge you to email them, and get this reply. Print it, and walk back into the store, and purchase something very cheap. If you are telling the truth, you’ll be arrested for trespass. If you are lying, well, then you won’t have any problems.

    1. wow this reply is bullshit, the police report states that the REI employees requested the trespassing charge not the Loomis morons.

      Sally Jewell is the CEO send here some emails and let her know what we think
      SJEWELL@rei.com

  75. Disgusting. I’m shaking in anger. Imagine being threatened, handcuffed and detained??? I’ve never been arrested in 35 years of my life and this is truly frightening because in a similar situation I would do that exact same thing as you did, stand up for my rights. I’ve been a member of REI since 1992 and I have already contacted them to express my solidarity with your situation. I may very well cancel my membership if I do not hear this has been resolved with a sincere $$$ apology.

  76. If you hadn’t acted like a dick from the get go, things wouldn’t have gone the way they had. But you were. So they decided to be dicks to you, and arrest you.

    Even reading your side of the story which I would expect to be biased towards you, I noticed a few telling comments, like the crossed out telling them to go fuck themselves comment.

    Yeah. You share equal blame for anything that happened to you here. You shouldn’t have been arrested, but then, you shouldn’t have been a dick about the whole thing either.

    1. He took a picture, paid for his item, and chose not to provide his ID to a couple of security guards (they weren’t even police officers). How is that acting like a “dick” ?

      Would you show your ID to a fake cop ?

      I wouldn’t. Ever. (Fake cops have the same level of “authority” as someone selling cotton candy.)

      1. re read the post while imagining if what he describes with his natural bias, what his reaction would be.

        In the entire situation, he was being aggressively un cooperative, dismissive, and argumentative. That’s what got him into trouble. not the phone, not the picture, that just started. His own behavior got him into trouble.

        If a person’s being a dick to you, your natural reaction is to return the favor.

        Yes, I’d show my ID to a “fake cop” as you put it. It costs me nothing. What are they going to do with it, anyway? Put it in some report some where that will be filed away and never seen again until it’s destroyed? Oh noes!

      2. There was no reason to be cooperative with the fake cops. They had ZERO authority in that situation. By bowing to their unreasonable request to see an ID, all you would be doing is giving them a level of authority that they (clearly) do not deserve. (They didn’t even ask for the photo to be deleted.) They were just on 9/11 power-trips. Maybe you are happy to accommodate the police-state mentality – in which case may I suggest you move to N. Korea (I hear they have a lot of that there).

        As for me, I am happy to live in a country where fake cops have zero authority to demand anything of me.

  77. oh look, Shanes an annoying Straightedge Vegan “Anarchist”

    Climb on the trend train any more, bud?

    please go die, Seattle doesn’t need anymore whiny bitchy Straightedge Vegans

  78. 1. You should have known better.
    2. It’s too bad it happened.
    3. They definitely reacted in a negative light.
    4. Maybe they’ll apologize and give you a gift certificate.

    1. “…should have known better.” ??

      How so ? What did he do wrong ?

      1. He should have known better for many reason..one a ATM inside could be seen and leave open attemopts to tamper with…

        2. Loomis employees ride around guarding millions of bucks daily so yes they are going worry about some guy taking pics with a cell phone.

        walk in a bank and try and take a pic…see what you get…same thing here.

      2. It wasn’t a bank. It was an REI.

        I am not about to walk into a nuclear power plant and start taking a bunch of pictures, primarily because there would be signs posted saying “No Photos, Please”.

        You simply cannot compare an REI to a bank. (That’s an absurd comparison.)

    2. With all due respect… shouldn’t the cops have “known better” ??

  79. You call them rent a cops or wanna be real cops…but think for a minute…these men put their lives in far more danger IMO than real cops…try riding around in a vehicle with a few million bucks in it and I am sure your outlook would change fast.

    I see nothing wrong with them asking you questions and I believe you need look at their safety as a far more concern than your inquiry of stuff you cant see.

    1. 1. ATM refillers don’t ride around with a “few million bucks”.

      2. No one is forcing them to do what they do. It’s a professional choice, and the gun that they are carrying on their hip offers plenty of protection.

      3. I would not call an iPhone a weapon – nor a threat.

      4. There IS nothing wrong with asking a few questions. Nor is there anything wrong to refuse a request by a fake cop to provide a real ID.

      As he noted, he wasn’t even asked to delete the photo. The fake cops were on 9/11 power trips. You don’t need to be a brain surgeon to recognize that. They had ZERO authority in that situation.

      1. First of all, I don’t condone the actions of any of you, but to have you arrested (or at least detained) was a little over the top, if your story is true. I tend to think someone with your attitude will edit the truth somewhat to make you look like the victim.
        Now, a few things I want to say about this. This is my professional opinion, and mine alone. If you disagree, fine. If you agree, fine. Whatever.

        To call these ATM technicians “fake cops” or “rent a cops” just shows your ignorance. They are ATM techs. Nothing more, nothing less. They are paid to go put money into the machines so you can get your money out of them. Plain and simple. The fact that this particular ATM tech was on a power trip doesn’t mean all of them are like him. They aren’t. I have about 30 of them who work for me. (not Loomis)
        Second, I have seen posts in which the poster speculates that
        A. once the machine is loaded, they have no more money, and therefore there is no more threat. FALSE. Most ATM replenishments are swaps. They load a fresh load of cash, and take the leftover money back with them. There is ALWAYS threat.
        B. They can carry well over a million dollars on the trucks. Not all of them do, but most of them can have more than that. This is common knowledge.
        Most ATM techs do not think they are, nor do they want to be cops. If they did, they would become cops. They are not security guards, and generally, they have twice the intelligence of a typical security guard. The only way they could be considered security guards, is the fact that they have to be licenced to carry a gun through the same state agency.

        As far as the picture taking, I’ll agree it’s not illegal. However, it’s not illegal to run up and stand next to them while they’re loading the ATM either, but common sense would tell you not to do it. As far as him threatening to tackle you, I doubt that happened, but if it did, he was in the wrong. I think the facts speak for themselves. You did something that wasn’t a good idea, and when confronted about it, you went into anarchy mode and got yourself arrested. ATM techs are always on the defensive because that’s the nature of the business. When you lose your sense of security, you get robbed, or worse. They carry guns to protect themselves from bad guys. When you look like a bad guy, and you do unintelligent things like start snapping pictures of them while they’re loading an ATM, expect to be treated like a bad guy. As far as the cop incident, I have my own opinion of power hungry cops, and it probably is similar to yours.
        Perhaps in the future you would excercise a little more tact and common courtesy in your actions. It was said that it’s not illegal to be a dick to a cop. You’re right. However, try it and see what happens to you. For that matter, come be a dickhead to me and see what happens. You reap what you sow.

        Dave
        Manager of an ATM company in Texas.

  80. Bill them for your time and suffering.$3000 dollars should cover it.

  81. The 9/11 remark was especially, uh, humorous. What were they accusing you off? Planning to fly an ATM into an REI store? Or something?

    I’ve been a member of REI for something like 35+ years. I’m going to be very interested in what REI has to say about this.

  82. thank you for sticking up for yourself. an inspiring and amusing story. shame they put you in cuffs, and shame you can’t do anything about that. certainly seems that if the police detain you and place you in handcuffs, you damn well better have broken a law. if not, you damn well would think you could have their asses hoisted by their own petards…

  83. Wow…you decided to act like a baby and got arrested for it. YOU are the one who acted like a douche and you try to paint yourself as a hero? Good one. Whether or not they did something “wrong,” acting like a spoiled, attention seeking baby makes you the ass in this situation. Did it feel good standing up to the man? Did you feel like you accomplished something with your life? Just think you can tell people your story about how you stood up for civil rights, marched on Washington AND acted like a spoiled brat. Bravo.

    1. Yea, f*ck standing up for your rights! I agree! Standing up for your rights is lame and retarded! Only douches to that! He should have let that fake cop with all his fake authority walk all over his a*s!! That’s what I do. When ever anyone wants to f*ck me in the a*s, I just bend over and say “How deep?”. Only p*ssies stand up for their rights, and demand respect for the law. Good one!! I love you “Violinplayer7”. You are clearly one of the smart ones. Go Cheney!! Go Limbaugh!!

      /sarcasm

  84. This is completely outragous! I’m a photographer and have dealt with 9/11 paranoia myself. I’ve tweeted this out because people just really need to be aware of how dumb ass the “authorities” can be.

  85. Hm. Maybe the next time you have insatiable curiosity about the inside of something, especially something you can reasonably guess people will be touchy about, you can google it in the first place, instead. It’ll probably save you a lot of trouble. Yeah.

    Oh, WAIT. You’re an ANARCHIST. You LIVE for trouble. Silly me.

  86. I think it is high time for the ACLU or any major law firm with some guts and the ability to do some pro bono work to take the entire law enforcement profession into court on a class action lawsuit. If taking pictures is to be illegal then when and where MUST be defined. The law is not up to the discretion of those enforcing it. It is up to the state legislatures and congress to make the laws.

    Enough is ENOUGH!

  87. How come you won’t state what you were charged with…many people are curious and would like to know.

  88. You big troublemaker. How dare you photograph two people in a public place, with no expectations of privacy. I wish I could have gotten to your deluxe comic book ad sooner. I would have offered you my timeshare.(oops it’s in Mexico)Boycott REI!

  89. Many of you think that REI is a public place. It is not. You need to realize that all businesses are private property. You are mistaken if you think that they are public places. Stepping foot into their store means you’re agreeing to their rules and most all major corporations do not allow photography.

    You can read more about photographer’s rights here http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

    So you did in fact violate this proprietors own policy. This is not illegal but you are doing something “wrong” in the eyes of REI and their vendor Loomis. It was at that point you had the opportunity to cooperate and explain yourself or complicate things and do the whole “anarchy thing”. As soon as REI started cooperating with Loomis that should have been your clue they did not want you taking pictures of anything.

    This whole situation is not about taking the picture. It is about your lack of cooperation. This prevented the store owners, the atm vendor and the police officers from establishing if you’re one of these crazy ATM thieves or not. Honestly by the looks of you I would think you are not capable of such a thing but I imagine they’ve learned to not underestimate anyone.

  90. I would ask the PD why the security guard that threatened to tackle you was not arrested. He should have been charged with coercion, at a minimum, and possibly with assault. I guarantee if you had threatened to tackle one of the security guards the police would have arrested you.

  91. Everyone was just doing their job. The police were investigating suspicious activity; you were doing suspicious activity; the store was protecting itself from disruptive customers. Investigation was over once it was determined that you were not a criminal — just a douche-nozzle with a chip on his shoulder.

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  93. Shane

    I really want to support you in this case. As a photographer and a photographers’ rights advocate who runs a photographers’ rights organization these incidents anger me more than anybody, however. The longer you refuse to tell us what you were charged with (which, I’ve asked you twice so far), the more I start to doubt the authenticity of your claims. If what you’re saying is true though, and you were arrested for solely photographing someone on private property that was open to the public (which constitutes public space), then you were unlawfully arrested and I could help you find a lawyer. Just let us know what you were charged with, and release the police report to the public. Thanks.

    1. Based on his post he eventually got charged with trespassing, it looks like. Or at least hauled off and forced to sign that thing instead of being charged.

      I’m not saying that makes sense or would be legitimate; this is the Seattle cops we’re talking about.

      1. Well, I would really like to get a direct response from Shane about the charges rather than read all of this conjecture. I would like him to say, “I was charged with…”. That way some of us can take a position in this case and possibly help him. On the other hand, since Shane is not responding to someone who is willing and capable of helping him, I’m starting to believe that he was arrested for trespassing and not for taking a photo. In any case, if this entire incident did occur because Shane legally photographed the Loomis employees and an ATM machine in a public space then that is wrong. Nobody can lawfully be arrested for taking pictures in a public space. It’s our constitutional right do so and protected by the 1st Amendment.

    2. It doesn’t appear he was charged with anything. He was arrested, ordered by REI to stay away in the future, and released.

  94. The police had no legal right to arrest you. You were in a public place and never given prior warning that you were not allowed into this public accessible store by the owner/clerk. Over and over the courts have upheld that police can NOT arrest a citizen on what the courts termed as “on the spot” trespassing or “zero prior warning” trespass, as a person can not be guilty of the crime of “trespassing in a public accessible establishment” that has never been warn prior to that moment.

    The police officer violated your civil rights when he arrested you; Therefore you should, must, file charges against all those involved. Have your attorney file court action to seize the security video to prove your case. If you do not, than you are helping to allow these constitutional atrocities to continue. Do not complain unless you are willing to help yourself first and to fight this outrage.

    Please fight this.

    Regards

    1. An REI store is not a public place. It is private property.

      Also, what would it have hurt for him to respond. People are just trying to do their jobs.

      1. And was he arrested? Sounds to me like he was part of an investigation — one that would have been much shorter if he had dealt respectfully with the authorities.

      2. An REI store is NOT fully private property. It is a business licensed from the state with an area that is open to the general public. The area(s) in such a business NOT open to the general public is to be marked in plain sight, as “employees only” etc. If it was a fully private property, every person who simply wanted to buy a drink would need to be granted permission from the owner before entering the front door. Go read the law before making asinine comments friend. One more thing “Just trying to do their job” was the excuse used by the Nazi. A persons Constitutional rights and the law protects his right not to be threatened or be forced to comply with an unlawful order by the two PRIVATE citizens (rent-a-cops), whom had no legal right to order him to do anything. Once they (rent-a-cops) threatened to “tackle him”, they assaulted the citizen. Wake up friend.

      3. “Was he arrested?” Once the officer placed the handcuffs on him, he was detained. Once the officer transported the citizen against his will, to the police station and placed him in a cell; yes he was “under arrest” (any court at this point would agree) If you would like to argue the finer points of “detained” vs. “arrested” in this matter, than I must say you are using such as a method to take this discussion away from the larger issue but please do, I will debate you if you wish.
        Back to subject at hand; You say if he “dealt respectfully with authorities”… First, the rent-a-cops are nothing more than private citizens that have no “authority” over any other private citizen. They (rent-a-cops) job was to service/maintain the machine. They have no legal right to threaten or force a citizen to “stop taking pictures” or “demand ID”… never mind assaulting another citizen by approaching him & treating to “tackle him”. (simple threat or more, would be open to debate) When he was dealing with the real police, he was respectfully asserting his Constitutional rights and as such he was arrested. The “respect” that you seem to cherish in this matter, should have been given to the citizen who was well within his rights not to be harassed or threatened by the rent-a-cops, especially for simply taking a picture in an area open to the general public. If I was in this citizen’s state, I would take this case with pride and without charge. As such, I will grant you that there is 3 sides to every story, “His, theirs & the truth” and usually land in the middle but having said this, I would enjoy standing for this citizens Constitutional rights (which I feel were blatantly violated).

  95. Looks to me like Shane was assaulted, kidnapped and falsely imprisoned.

    Oh, but wait, that can’t happen when the crimes are being committed by so-called “authorities” with fancy uniforms and badges.

    My disappointment with many of the commenters on this threat could not be more complete.

  96. You have a lawsuit for false arrest.
    You need to get all the information now before it goes away.There is no law against what you did. There is no policy, no sign nothing but a couple a nazi cops. We need their names. I will bet they have a past. Most of the rent a cops are X-cops that have something in their past that prevents them from being cops. (drugs, beating the wife, etc.)

    REI is the deap pockets. You can cost them thousands and they will settle. There is no law against what you did. You need to go to the police and file a complaint against the Sargent. At least get the forms.

    I wish you were in San Diego. We would do a picket of REI for with a press conference for the media and it would be all over but the writing of the check.

    I will be making a call as johndoe report. If you want to get on some internet radio shows send me an email at johndoereport@gmail.com.

  97. Incredible story, I am glad it turned out ok!

    Just so you know, you do not have to give them any ID or sign anything, but I think you did amazingly well against those bullies!

    Police actually have no jurisdiction over you once you establish that you are a “Human Being” not a “PERSON”.

    Learn all about this and more at http://www.thinkfree.ca

    1. Excellent video, thank you for posting.

      I wish people would broaden their minds and start to question everything they do, especially the things they take for granted or “just because everyone else does”. It is so true that people have little real knowledge of what a “certificate” of title/deed is or why they are not in possession of the actual original title or deed.
      The internet is just now breaking the indoctrinated, zombie like society; “waking people up” so to speak. That is why they (governments & mega corporations) are doing everything in their vast power to soon do away with the free, uncensored threat (yes they see it as a threat) or the internet as we know it now… People must fight this move at all cost because once they censor the internet (as “internet 2” or allowing it to fall under the control of private corporations, which will ALWAYS have THEIR own interests at stake), much if not all of the free alternative true media will be gone and with it, the true exchange of uncensored ideas of a people that almost “woke-up”.

      This is a bit off subject but relevant to some of the mindless comments here that are zombies of the system that has indoctrinated them to NEVER question what they perceive as “authority”…
      The following video is about Monsanto & understanding “what” people are truly eating and more importantly, feeding to their children. People do this unknowingly because they are indoctrinated to believe GM food is “safe” because the FDA allows it to be sold/eaten or because they simply just don’t realize that GMO’s are even in their food. (Remember that almost everything you buy in a supermarket that is not certified organic or labeled “GM free”, has GMO’s in it, either directly or by GM byproducts such as high fructose corn syrup, corn starch,corn oils, soy oils, canola oils, etc..

  98. Ignore all of the mindless ranks calling you a DB or idiot. They are just pissed they didn’t get their 15 mins of fame, although I do not consider any of this fame.

    While I understand the sensitive nature in dealing with the amount of cash, robberies and other safety concerns, these Loomis employees went beyond what they needed to do. I don’t care how many people they deal with or that they assume everyone looking at them has evil or bad intentions. They needed to be more professional in explaining their concerns about your taking a photo. Civil dialogue would have produced no arrest, no threats of physical abuse and a kind exchange of back and forth understanding.

    Instead, asshats like the Loomis employee that simply wanted to “tackle you” and commenters like dave loader who appear to love physical abuse at the drop of a hat (asshat?), are not interested in protecting anything secure. They are only interested in the principle of “guilty until proven innocent” and are just lying in wait for someone, anyone, to threaten them so they can exercise their retribution.

    I say, bravo to you for standing up to this. I hope that this obvious abuse of power will be recognized by all of the reasonable viewers to this blog.

    In the meantime, I will avoid entering an REI store and in-store ATMs that are being worked on.

  99. I guess the best way to have resolved this would have been to let the fuckers pull their guns and kill ya. You as and anarchist wouldn’t have any problem with this would you?

  100. If you have a printer, you can print out a copy of this transcript by selecting the Print option from your browser’s File menu.

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    You have been connected to Member Agent Zulay L.
    Member Agent Zulay L: How can I help you Mat?
    Mat: Is the statement in the website — http://iamshane.com/2009/05/09/of-atms-iphones-and-911/ — have any truth to it?
    Mat: As a member, I need to know.
    Mat: Was REI involved in his arrest, or was it Loomis?
    Member Agent Zulay L: While the situation did occur on store property, REI did not call the police and did not detain the individual. It is unfortunate that this situation happened, but our team acted appropriately under the circumstances. We are committed to providing a welcoming and safe environment for all of our customers.
    Member Agent Zulay L: For additional information, we encourage you to contact the Seattle Police Department.
    Mat: Perfect
    Mat: Thank you.
    Mat: I appreciate the professional response.
    Member Agent Zulay L: We can also forward any additional questions you may have to our Public Affairs Department.
    Member Agent Zulay L: Is there anything else I can do for you today?
    Mat: No, that’s what I needed. Take care.
    Member Agent Zulay L: Thank you for using REI LiveHelp! If you would like a transcript of this LiveHelp session for later reference, click on the printer icon in the bottom right-hand corner of this window before the session ends. Once this session is completed, you will not be able to print it.

    1. Nice try to cover the deep pockets, but REI’s loss prevention officer was involved, and the Loomis people were there as agents of BOA who in turn was an agent of REI.

      1. I highly doubt that REI owns that ATM. It’s almost certain that they simply allow the bank to place it there.

        There is no way in which this makes the Loomis employees “agents” of REI. At best, they are agents of Loomis, which is a *contractor* to a bank. Contractors are rarely, if ever, “agents” of a company that contracts them in a legal sense.

  101. ahhh crap like this reminds me why i left the Seattle area. Granted the Loomis punks acted poorly, but that didn’t empower you to act like a little prick to everyone involved. Once the cops were involved they just did their job. Your kind of people never cease to amaze. Grow up and try to act like adults.

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  103. I would not do the radio show. It gets listeners for the wingnut who owns the mike, and you won’t control the edits, etc. It’s a net loss for you.

  104. To start off IANAL ( I am not a Lawyer)

    But as many people posted before take a look at Photographers Right http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

    Specifically the paragraph:

    If someone has threatened, intimidated,
    or detained you because you were
    taking photographs, they may be
    liable for crimes such as kidnapping,
    coercion, and theft. In such cases, you
    should report them to the police.

    You probelly should have filled a foral complaint againist both REI security and the security company when the police office took you too the office. But you probably could still do that if you want. May want to talk to a lawyer

    At the least I would write a formal letter to both the security company and REI about the harassment of their security guards. You could also probably get this sent from a law firm. At the least corporate REI would probably say this was not trespassing and you would not be banned from store for 1 year.

    1. That’s rather interesting. A much broader right to photograph than I imagined. From the Photographers Rights:
      “If the conduct goes beyond mere questioning, all states have laws that make coercion and harassment criminal offenses.”
      Maybe you’ve got a case after all, not to mention the possibility of pressing criminal charges.

  105. Shame Becker, Ii don’t think these security guards or spd acted with malice toward your idiotic feat. Secondly, you refused to give your id. You are just asking for trouble. If you sue anyone it should be your school for not educating you better. We are at war in case you didn’t understand that. You’re lucky they didn’t cut off the finger you snap your photos with..

    1. Seriously? Is this some sort of sarcastic “Stephen Colbert” type comment? Damn straight the US is at war against al Qaeda, the remnants of the Saddam Hussein regeime and the Taliban. You know, the kind of people who a afraid of people taking pictures, the kind of people who demand your ID even when they have no right to interfere with you, the kind of people who cut off the fingers of those they dislike, the kind of people who do these things without the rule of law or open, fair courts of law. Quit insulting our troops by espousing that the US should do exactly the vile crap that our troops are freeing people from around the world. Have you no respect for their spilled blood?

  106. Shane,

    #1 – for crying out loud, why are your fonts so huge?
    #2 – why’d you sign the form? You shouldn’t have.
    #3 – I’m a part-time pro photographer, and your post infuriates me (at them, not you). You were, of course, right, and your rights were trampled on by this encounter and all involved. At the very least, the cops should have known better.

    I’ll be blogging about this myself over at http://www.seattlekarma.com. Not trying to pimp, just wanted to let you know I’ll write about you too. I end up shaking every time I hear about a photographer harassed for doing absolutely nothing wrong.

    You really, really should not have signed that form.

  107. On the other hand, he was in Seattle which holds a good second or third place in police corruption behind New Orleans, LA, Dallas or Chicago. I lived in Seattle for 12 years. I assume that the Loomis “cops” had all of a 7th grade education and probably had more tattos than number of teeth. The REI Security Director is a semi-executive so he probably had a 9th grade education. The problem began with the cops that arrested him for listening to these rent-a-cops. The police report probably read that Shane was asked to leave and did not…hence the trespassing charge.
    I don’t think that what happened was fair in any way. The advise I gave my two boys when growing up says it all: cops are there to help but you should avoid them at all costs”.

  108. Ya, that stuff can really mess with your head too. Nine years ago a security guard tried to have me arrested when I walked past the checkout line with a wingnut in my hand to look at the display by the door. The cop just laughed at him though. I think the hardware store banned me for two or three years, which was really unnecessary, not like I was going back there. They sent me an extortion letter every month for three years, “pay us $x or we’ll sue you”(the number changed every month). Irritating and stupid, I don’t really see how that kind of behavior is good for business. I’m sure it deters a few actual criminals, but they also end up banning many paying customers and driving away others who hear the story.

  109. Your civil rights have been violated by the Seattle Police Department, and you should sue. You should also Sue Loomis, REI and the individual men who abused the process.

    You did nothing illegal.

    You are NOT required to provide your ID to just anybody who asks.

    You should go to the local media, and embarass the hell out of these people.

    I’m a lawyer in Los Angeles, and know a few in Seattle. Let me know if you want some help!

    -Gordon Firemark

    1. Keep up the good work. The only time you are required to carry ID is while driving a vehicle or traveling via Air. “Your Papers, Please.”

      Sent to e-mails to REI….
      “I just finished reading this story and am very disappointed in REI as a company. If a fellow REI customer can be arrested and accused of trespass for taking a picture in an REI store, well, then, I have no desire to do business with REI.”

  110. Keep up the good work. The only time you are required to carry ID is while driving a vehicle or traveling via Air. “Your Papers, Please.”

    Sent to e-mails to REI….
    “I just finished reading this story and am very disappointed in REI as a company. If a fellow REI customer can be arrested and accused of trespass for taking a picture in an REI store, well, then, I have no desire to do business with REI.”

  111. Keep up the good work. The only time you are required to carry ID is while driving a vehicle or traveling via Air. “Your Papers, Please.”

    Sent two e-mails to REI….
    “I just finished reading this story and am very disappointed in REI as a company. If a fellow REI customer can be arrested and accused of trespass for taking a picture in an REI store, well, then, I have no desire to do business with REI.”

  112. An anarchist? Hmmmm… I hate a-holes that don’t respect privacy rights. Take a picture of me and I’ll gladly go to court for punching the shit out of ya…LOL

    1. What privacy rights prohibit another person from photographing you when you’re in a public place?

      1. The are none. There isn’t expectation to privacy when you are in public or a public space such as REI or the mall

    2. Who would take a picture of your huge freaking head anyways

  113. Sounds like you got harassed for being a smart ass. Good job, I probably would have done the same.

  114. I have a great deal of sympathy for police officers and folks with dangerous jobs in general, but maybe not these unprofessional individuals. To all the ATM stockers and their bosses – if it’s so dangerous, then you need to do a better job of protecting them and if you are concerned about their interactions with the public in open, public places, then you need to make changes. If they are uncomfortable with the public taking pictures when the machines are open, then they need to only stock this machine when the store is closed. Given that the lives of the ATM stockers is threatened, then it seems necessary to make these sorts of changes. Do the ATM companies care so little for human life?

    or … we’re all at risk of being robbed/stabbed/shot (well, many of us are. I grew up in and live in not the best parts of the city of Chicago.) I’m sure that the REI in Seattle is located in a really scary assed slum, by Chicago/NY standards. Maybe those Loomis guys should do a ride-along with the guys who stock ATMs and Currency Exchanges/Payday loan joints in the more f-ed up parts of Chicago or Detroit. It might reset their threat sensitivity to a better level.

    Shane – you really do need to consider filing some suits – maybe not to make money for yourself, but to get out the facts of what happened. By suing, you will be able to subpoena the security tapes from the store, you will be able to have the individuals involved deposed under oath. They will probably lie, and their stories will probably contradict each other. You will be able to track down witnesses to the events. If nothing else, complying with the subpoenas will take up time an resources from the organizations that participated in harassing you. When they get the bills from their lawyers to deal with the suit, it may help them to think through what they did wrong here.

    If the Loomis guy actually threatened you with violence if you attempted to leave, then that is a serous felony. He has the right to ask for your ID, he has the right to be an unprofessional schmuck, but he does not have the right to illegally detain you. That was a wrong choice he apparently made, and he needs to deal with his responsibility and consequences for those actions.

    Part of this whole discussion is pointless. Most “law and order” types are literally incapable of understanding the Constitutional/rights-based ethical framework that we are dealing with here. It’s like someone from a 4 dimensional universe trying to explain that 4th dimension to us here in 3 dimensions. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development

    People get in a huff when you point it out, but most adults operate at Kohlberg’s 4th level: “Authority and social-order maintaining orientation” From the article, “it is important to obey laws, dictums and social conventions because of their importance in maintaining a functioning society.” You see it here: “You broke the rules by taking the picture. You should have obeyed the men in the uniforms and given your ID. You didn’t obey, and that’s bad ‘cuz you made a disruption. You got punished like you’re supposed to!”

    Most of these people are literally unable to understand the abstract reasoning that the US Constitution operates on as a compromise between social order and the rights of the individual. Part of the problem we all deal with is that most police officers are a representative sample of the global adult population. The rest of us are stuck constantly doing the hard work of maintaining the system of compromise and balance. Take a deep breath, manage the outrage and recognize that this hard work has been going on since the 18th century. This will continue as long as we are lucky enough for America and our Constitution to exist.

  115. Everyone take photos of everything! I photo everything of interest. They have no right to power trip. If I can see it with my eyes collecting the photons why the hell can’t I have a digital picture to augment my brain’s memory of the events and to share with others. There are no secrets out in the open public areas. State power is a dangerous illusion that we let these monkey’s trip with. Little Brother Eyes Everywhere might be able to stop some of Big Brother’s Abuses – and has before with many well known cases. Record every sighting of police, rescue, strange events and post them on youtube and elsewhere. Power to US, the people!!! Take back the power from the State delusionals and power trippers.

  116. Oh yeah, sue their asses Shane for false arrest and malicious persecution and whatever else you can think of.

  117. To those who say he was trespassing: At no time did the REI people ask him to leave. He was not trespassing. The Loomis people specifically told him *NOT* to leave.

    To those who say he was taking pictures where he shouldn’t: At no time did the REI people ask him to stop taking photos. Nor did they ask him to delete those he had taken. At no time did the Loomis people ask him to stop taking pictures; only to “come talk to me.”

    Both parties asked for his name. He didn’t give it. (Ironically, he was trying to pay with a form of payment that has his name on it when the officer arrived.) Yes, Mr. Becker SHOULD have been more tactful in his responses. But there is no law that says you can be arrested for being rude.

  118. It is irrelevant if the “men with guns” think he is being rude, they are using the threat of deadly force with their guns and physical bodily harm of being tackled without any basis – legal or otherwise.

    There is no need to be polite when they are infringing upon your rights. They are the criminals that need to be held responsible for their crimes.

    One crime is using threats to have people comply with them.

    Hold the State Based Terrorists criminally responsible for their crimes against humanity including their crimes against Shane.

    1. Shane,

      A friend of mine forwarded your article to me. Really amazing story, and taken together with all of the comments it forms a very telling story about our society, the discourse we use to describe it, and peoples’ attempts at making sense of it and urging you, your readers, and themselves towards some kind of settlement (some quite deranged) regarding what it all means. There really is quite a lot going on in this little slice of life you’ve offered. I commend your reasonable attitude and reaction to the situation.

      1. It is upsetting that the police can do this to a perfectly law-abiding citizen. Please, file a complaint with the Office of Professional Accountability. (http://www.seattle.gov/police/accountability/) That sort of behavior is unacceptable. If the OPA investigates the matter and doesn’t find anything wrong with it, then some laws need to be made! What citizen wouldn’t vote for a law that prevents frivolous arrests?

  119. Pingback: Twitted by 3thom
  120. As a former prosecutor, I normally advise people to comply with law enforcement to the best of their ability. However, in this particular case, I see no indicia of illegal activity, and honestly, law enforcement should never have gotten involved. The whole arrest is garbage. I’m not sure it would be worth it to sue REI, Loomis, or the Seattle PD over this…but I absolutely agree that you have every right to be pissed off over the whole incident.

  121. In 1966 I was in a Co-op market in Berkeley, CA watching the pickup of receipts from the store. The Loomis idiots were nervous and when my 7 year old daughter went over to see what they were doing one of them pointed his 12 ga shotgun at her head and she freaked! I went over took the shotgun away from this moron and proceeded to beat him senseless and bloody with it. I had considered just killing him right there but there were too many people around, and it would have looked like a robbery and murder. I smashed his shotgun over the edge of the safe, kicked him in the nuts a 1/2 dozen times, stomped on his neck, and left the store. I never heard any more about it. I considered looking him up and finishing what I had started but my wife convinced me not to. Lucky for him, or he would have become Farallon Island shark food.

    1. P.S. His little piece of shit partner ran out of the store and hid in the armored truck. Over 2 dozen people in the checkout lines witnessed this and NOT ONE! co-operated with the police as to what happened, except to say this guy had assaulted a little girl with a shotgun and her father took charge and disarmed the idiot.

      1. You sound so brave and macho!

        I am so proud of you!

        I’m also pretty sure your story is bullshit – and the braggadocio of a deeply insecure man with some…size issues

        The tip off was you talking about the guard’s big shotgun – I’m sure you wish you had a big long gun, don’t ya?

        Nice fantasy story though – you really sound like Chuck Norris younger brother – or Steven Segal’s nephew, or Jean Claude Van Damme’s baby brother!

  122. Wow, that is absolutely ridiculous. It was probably more of a way for the security guards and police officers to exercise their authority over the public. They’re unelected officials, so who are they to deem what is considered appropriate and inappropriate behaviour in public spaces? Lame! You did the right thing though, props.

  123. Thanks for sharing your story Shane.. Helps me pre-process how I might respond to similar foolishness should it ever come up. Seems like I’m noticing more and more of this kind of thing going on. Maybe people just talk about it more.. Or maybe it’s actually happening more. Nevertheless, I think it’s great to talk about it and try to establish an understanding of how far we should let others push on us.

    1. Sup Shane I heard you on Dori Monson today, it’s a bunch of crap that you got treated that way by those power tripping ego maniacs.

      These are the same people who were probably bullied as kids and became gun-wielding professionals to fulfill what’s void in their life.

      Anyways keeps updated on this story, good luck to you.

  124. I was in line just ahead of you. I was there on Friday afternoon and the same photographed “officers” had the machine opened. The amazing thing is that this machine was wide open in front of about 40 or so customers. It was pretty much the focus of attention in front of a very boring line. I can’t believe they would even pretend that there was any expected privacy for them in their duty to load $20 bills. I must have left just before the incident.

  125. Good for you Shane. Are anarchists allowed to use the civil court system?

  126. I can’t understand why some people seem to get angry at you in the comment section? Maybe I missed something in the story, or in the commentary you have written (which I think was a spot on description of fascists)…

    This is exactly what I always tell people about every mistake being a new opportunity!! Some poople call you a d-bag for getting yourself into this situation, they are the ones who are d-bags- not realizing how much you will capitalize off of this “mistake”. Just think about how many people have changed the way they think (even if only slightly) about THE POLICE STATE.

    And all this was over data creation. They were worried about one little personal piece of data that you would have probably only looked at a hand full of times. And now there are bits and bits, and mega bits created, which are much more powerful and one dink iPhone snapshot, which would have told very little of this whole story.

    this is a great little piece of post-modern americana –I will not forget this story.

    Thank you for standing up for your rights, and not submitting to the MASTER. If everyone would act like you, you “long-haired, tree-hugging, birkenstock-wearing, maggot-infested, pot-smoking, liberal little geek” (that guy must have really known you well) The nation wouldn’t be blind to the real issues dictating the world around us.

    Thanks again.

    alittlepoopie.wordpress.com

    1. Flyncooley,

      Did it ever occur to you that these guards had a reasonable fear that this little douche was planning some sort of robbery?

      On the real, who else but a bank robber would photograph security guards loading an ATM machine?

      Those guys had a justified fear for their lives, and they responded correctly.

      It’s unfortunate that the Seattle Police let this prick off with a warning – they should have put him through the system for a couple of days and then made him explain his actions to a judge.

      A few days in the King County Jail might have cured him of a little bit of his arrogance.

      1. Duh? Of course it occurred to us that they felt a robbery was being planned. Why else would they ask the guy for ID ? (Are you an idiot?)

        Regardless of what they THOUGHT… they have zero authority to demand that someone provide an ID. (Did it ever occur to you that we, as Americans, are not required to even CARRY and ID?!)

        These monkeys were not even police officers! A few days in the King County Jain may have reminded them that (in spite of their side arm), they zero social authority.

  127. For a co-op REI is pretty intrusive into your personal information. Try using your REI Visa card at REI for a transaction. Every time I’m asked for my ID. Each time I say no. The Visa rules permit the card holder to say no, and I don’t need some clerk to know my address drivers license number and other personal information. With my personal information, the 3 digit code on the back of the Visa card, and the card number, the clerk can steal my card information and start buying all kinds of stuff on the web.

    REI continues to insist on seeing my ID, even though they face severe fines from Visa for breaking the Visa rules, and invading their customers private information.

    REI has become a police state and is unfriendly to it’s owners (it’s co-op members). They think they are a non-profit instead of a business to serve and deliver financial results to their mebers.

  128. Are photographers really a threat?
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/jun/05/news.terrorism

    What is it with photographers these days? Are they really all terrorists, or does everyone just think they are?

    Since 9/11, there has been an increasing war on photography. Photographers have been harrassed, questioned, detained, arrested or worse, and declared to be unwelcome. We’ve been repeatedly told to watch out for photographers, especially suspicious ones. Clearly any terrorist is going to first photograph his target, so vigilance is required.

    Except that it’s nonsense. The 9/11 terrorists didn’t photograph anything. Nor did the London transport bombers, the Madrid bombers, or the liquid bombers arrested in 2006. Timothy McVeigh didn’t photograph the Oklahoma City Federal Building. The Unabomber didn’t photograph anything; neither did shoe-bomber Richard Reid. Photographs aren’t being found amongst the papers of Palestinian suicide bombers. The IRA wasn’t known for its photography. Even those manufactured terrorist plots that the US government likes to talk about — the Ft. Dix terrorists, the JFK airport bombers, the Miami 7, the Lackawanna 6 — no photography.

    Given that real terrorists, and even wannabe terrorists, don’t seem to photograph anything, why is it such pervasive conventional wisdom that terrorists photograph their targets? Why are our fears so great that we have no choice but to be suspicious of any photographer?

    Because it’s a movie-plot threat.

    … for the full article follow the link …

  129. http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

    The Photographer’s Right, A Downloadable Flyer Explaining Your Rights When Stopped or Confronted for Photography

    Click to access ThePhotographersRight.pdf

    The Photographer’s Right is a downloadable guide that is loosely based on the Bust Card and the Know Your Rights pamphlet that used to be available on the ACLU website. It may be downloaded and printed out using Adobe Acrobat Reader. You may make copies and carry them your wallet, pocket, or camera bag to give you quick access to your rights and obligations concerning confrontations over photography. You may distribute the guide to others, provided that such distribution is not done for commercial gain and credit is given to the author.

    The right to take photographs in the United States is being challenged more than ever. People are being stopped, harassed, and even intimidated into handing over their personal property simply because they were taking photographs of subjects that made other people uncomfortable. Recent examples have included photographing industrial plants, bridges, buildings, trains, and bus stations. For the most part, attempts to restrict photography are based on misguided fears about the supposed dangers that unrestricted photography presents to society.

    Ironically, unrestricted photography by private citizens has played an integral role in protecting the freedom, security, and well-being of all Americans. Photography in the United States has an established history of contributing to improvements in civil rights, curbing abusive child labor practices, and providing important information to crime investigators. Photography has not contributed to a decline in public safety or economic vitality in the United States. When people think back on the acts of domestic terrorism that have occurred over the last twenty years, none have depended on or even involved photography. Restrictions on photography would not have prevented any of these acts. Furthermore, the increase in people carrying small digital and cell phone cameras has resulted in the prevention of crimes and the apprehension of criminals.

    As the flyer states, there are not very many legal restrictions on what can be photographed when in public view. Most attempts at restricting photography are done by lower-level security and law enforcement officials acting way beyond their authority. Note that neither the Patriot Act nor the Homeland Security Act have any provisions that restrict photography. Similarly, some businesses have a history of abusing the rights of photographers under the guise of protecting their trade secrets. These claims are almost always meritless because entities are required to keep trade secrets from public view if they want to protect them.

  130. Hi, I found this very interesting paper, which we are free to spread around and learn from.

    “You may distribute the guide to others, provided that such distribution is not done for commercial gain and credit is given to the author.” – Bert P. Krages II

    Thanks Bert.

    Shane, considering that you were threatened with violent force if you didn’t comply with the “toy officer” who had a very non-toy gun you might have a very strong threatening of your life case. He also had no right to ask who you were or what you were doing. It seems that every step of the way he was violating many of your rights.

    Nail him and his company and the mall and the police department to the wall.

    All the best, pwl

    http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf.

    The Photographer’ Right

    About this Guide Confrontations that impair the constitutional right to make images are becoming more common. To fight the abuse of your right to free expression, you need to know your rights to take photographs and the remedies available if your rights are infringed.

    The General Rule
    The general rule in the United States is that anyone may take photographs of whatever they want when they are in a public place or places where they have permission to take photographs. Absent a specific legal prohibition such as a statute or ordinance, you are legally entitled to take photographs. Examples of places that are tradition- ally considered public are streets, sidewalks, and public parks. Property owners may legally pro- hibit photography on their premises but have no right to prohibit others from photographing their property from other locations. Whether you need permission from property own- ers to take photographs while on their premises depends on the circum- stances. In most places, you may rea- sonably assume that taking photo- graphs is allowed and that you do not need explicit permission. However, this is a judgment call and you should request permission when the circum- stances suggest that the owner is like- ly to object. In any case, when a prop- erty owner tells you not to take photo- graphs while on the premises, you are legally obligated to honor the request.

    Some Exceptions to the Rule
    There are some exceptions to the general rule. A significant one is that commanders of military installations can prohibit photographs of specific areas when they deem it necessary to protect national security. The U.S. Department of Energy can also prohibit photography of designated nuclear facilities although the publicly visible areas of nuclear facilities are usually not designated as such. Members of the public have a very limited scope of privacy rights when they are in public places. Basically, anyone can be photographed without their consent except when they have secluded themselves in places where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy such as dressing rooms, restrooms, medical facilities, and inside their homes.

    Permissible Subjects Despite misconceptions to the contrary, the following subjects can almost always be photographed law- fully from public places: accident and fire scenes
    children
    celebrities
    bridges and other infrastructure
    residential and commercial buildings
    industrial facilities and public utilities
    transportation facilities (e.g., airports)
    Superfund sites
    criminal activities
    law enforcement officers

    Who Is Likely to Violate Your Rights
    Most confrontations are started by security guards and employees of organizations who fear photography. The most common reason given is security but often such persons have no articulated reason. Security is rarely a legitimate reason for restrict- ing photography. Taking a photograph is not a terrorist act nor can a business legitimately assert that taking a photograph of a subject in public view infringes on its trade secrets. On occasion, law enforcement officers may object to photography but most understand that people have the right to take photographs and do not interfere with photographers. They do have the right to keep you away from areas where you may impede their activities or endanger safety. How- ever, they do not have the legal right to prohibit you from taking photo- graphs from other locations.

    They Have Limited Rights to Bother, Question, or Detain You
    Although anyone has the right to approach a person in a public place and ask questions, persistent and unwanted conduct done without a legitimate purpose is a crime in many states if it causes serious annoyance. You are under no obligation to explain the purpose of your photography nor do you have to disclose your identity except in states that require it upon request by a law enforcement officer. If the conduct goes beyond mere questioning, all states have laws that make coercion and harassment crimi- nal offenses. The specific elements vary among the states but in general it is unlawful for anyone to instill a fear that they may injure you, damage or take your property, or falsely accuse you of a crime just because you are taking photographs. Private parties have very limited rights to detain you against your will and may be subject to criminal and civil charges should they attempt to do so. Although the laws in most states authorize citizen’s arrests, such authority is very narrow. In general, citizen’s arrests can be made only for felonies or crimes committed in the person’s presence. Failure to abide by these requirements usually means that the person is liable for a tort such as false imprisonment.

    They Have No Right to Confiscate
    Your Film Sometimes agents acting for entities such as owners of industrial plants and shopping malls may ask you to hand over your film. Absent a court order, private parties have no right to confiscate your film. Taking your film directly or indirectly by threatening to use force or call a law enforcement agency can constitute criminal offenses such as theft and coercion. It can likewise constitute a civil tort such as conversion. Law enforcement officers may have the authority to seize film when making an arrest but otherwise must obtain a court order.

    Your Legal Remedies If Harassed
    If someone has threatened, intimidated, or detained you because you were taking photographs, they may be liable for crimes such as kidnapping, coercion, and theft. In such cases, you should report them to the police. You may also have civil remedies against such persons and their employers. The torts for which you may be entitled to compensation include assault, conversion, false imprisonment, and violation of your constitutional rights.

    Other Remedies If Harassed
    If you are disinclined to take legal action, there are still things you can do that contribute to protecting the right to take photographs. (1) Call the local newspaper and see if they are interested in running a story. Many newspapers feel that civil liberties are worthy of serious coverage. (2) Write to or call the supervisor of the person involved, or the legal or public relations department of the entity, and complain about the event. (3) Make the event publicly known on an Internet forum that deals with photography or civil rights issues.

    How to Handle Confrontations
    Most confrontations can be defused by being courteous and respectful. If the party becomes pushy, combative, or unreasonably hostile, consider calling the police. Above all, use good judgment and don’t allow an event to escalate into violence. In the event you are threatened with detention or asked to surrender your film, asking the following questions can help ensure that you will have the evidence to enforce your legal rights: 1. What is the person’s name? 2. Who is their employer? 3. Are you free to leave? If not, how do they intend to stop you if you decide to leave? What legal basis do they assert for the detention? 4. Likewise, if they demand your film, what legal basis do they assert for the confiscation?

    Disclaimer
    This is a general education guide about the right to take photographs and is necessarily limited in scope. For more information about the laws that affect photography, I refer you to the second edition of my book, Legal Handbook for Photographers (Amherst Media, 2006). This guide is not intended to be legal advice nor does it create an attorney client relationship. Readers should seek the advice of a competent attorney when they need legal advice regarding a specific situation.

    published by: Bert P. Krages II Attorney at Law 6665 S.W. Hampton Street, Suite 200 Portland, Oregon 97223 http://www.krages.com © 2003 Bert P. Krages II Your Rights and Remedies When Stopped or Confronted for Photography Updated November 2006

  131. Hi, This site has many news stories related to photographs and the law as well as links to the laws and issues in many countries including yours Shane. http://www.photolawnews.com.

    I’m in Canada so the rules are a bit different here but it’s good to know and learn about the rules that prevail in many countries as photographers tend to travel a lot these days.

    All the best,

    pwl

  132. It’s funny Shane that if all they had done was ask you to stop taking photographs or had a mall security guard do so they might have been not breaking any laws and would have been within the rights of the property owners. However, for some reason they didn’t do that… and since they used a threat of force, “Don’t try to leave. I will tackle you.” as their first or one of their first utterances to you, they perpetrated their first crime against you and set the stage for an escalation of their crimes.

    This certainly is an education for me reading and looking it up. So however you resolve this for yourself I can already say thank you for being brave and bold with these hyper aggressive people abusing twerps (to be polite as we Canadians tend to be).

    The chain of events was set in motion by their improper actions, not yours.

    One wonders if they actually know the laws as people authorized to carry weapons as money delivery boys with non-toy-guns. Surely they must receive some “certification” that they know basic laws and what they can and can’t do? If that’s the case then it may be possible to demonstrate that they knowingly over stepped their reach when they approached and attempted to intimidate you with verbal threats of violence.

    Oh, at any time did they “draw” attention to the fact they they had weapons? e.g. did they put their hand on the holster or the butt of the gun or unclip the holster? If so that is another explicit threat of using deadly force.

    all the best, pwl

    1. PWL,

      Your class arrogance shines through here!

      “Money delivery boys”????

      Look, these security officers take their lives in their hands every day when they deliver large sums of cash.

      That’s what the guns are for!

      So, when they feel that somebody is acting like a robber (and, on the real, the only person who would take a picture of guards loading cash into an ATM would be …a bank robber) the law gives them the right to protect themselves.

      This prick is LUCKY he’s White and affluent – he got off easy, with only an arrest.

      If he were poor and Black or Mexican – and had mouthed off to them like he did – either the guards or the cops would have beaten the shit out of him and maybe even shot him dead.

      Color and class privilege saved his little ass – and all he got was a ride to the stationhouse.

      And I would HOPE you would know that!

      1. The phase “money delivery boys” was intended to put these goofs in their place and wasn’t intended to besmirch their socioeconomic class. The glorified money delivery boys did the besmirching of their reputation on their own by picking on a person with threats of violence and bodily harm with their statement “Don’t try to leave. I will tackle you.”. That set the stage for their crimes and shows that that was their intent, to intimidate someone they observed doing a harmless action as taking a picture of their public activities in a public place where people don’t have an expectation of privacy. If they want privacy while changing money THEY should erect a shield to physically prevent people from seeing what they are doing. However, they didn’t do that and THEY (allegedly) made the threats to Shane.

        Their non-toy guns are NOT FOR the purpose of INTIMIDATING photographers with CRIMINAL THREATS OF VIOLENCE who might take a snapshot of them, the VERY REAL GUNS are for stopping thieves who are attempting to steal the MONEY they are carrying and for no other purpose!!! They are not cops, they are just glorified money delivery boys.

        No, the conclusion that he was a “robber” didn’t have any evidence. Their suspicions are not enough to establish criminal activity.

        I take photos and video of police all the time and post it to the internet. Little Brother observing Big Brother to ensure the rights of the individual are not violated by the members of the State who feel they can do anything at all and get away with it with impunity.

        Bad mouthing is not a crime even though they might not like it they are required by their duty to bit their lips and take it like a man.

        This is a case of abuse of power by glorified money delivery boys and the cops who attended.

        I have parents and friends who lived in communist countries in Easter Europe during the Soviet Era and what you are describing sounds a lot like the attitude that the Stasi in Czechoslovakia had towards the people.

        Jack boots are not welcome in the USA or Canada nor in Europe. Cops or private armies pretending to be cops who behave like Jack Boots are breaking many laws. Put them in jail if you can.

        All the best,

        pwl

      2. If they desire privacy they can change the money after the mall closes to the public! Then they have all the privacy they can ask for. While the public is permitted on the property and they choose to change the money machine IN PUBLIC SIGHT they have no expectation of privacy SINCE THEY are doing it in PUBLIC SIGHT!

        Sheesh.

      3. > on the real, the only person who would take a picture of guards loading cash into an ATM would be …a bank robber

        So it’s your contention that Shane is a bank robber?

  133. Young man, if you pulled that shit in New York;

    – the guards would have stomped you into the ground, maced you and cuffed you

    – the would have called the NYPD

    – the cops would have stomped you into the ground, batoned you, maced you, tasered you and taken off the security guards cuffs and replaced them with their cuffs

    – you would have been taken to the precinct

    – then to Central Booking

    – then to the video remote arraignment section of Central Booking

    – then to Rikers Island

    And then you’d be facing all kinds of serious criminal charges.

    Any African American, Latino or working class White person KNOWS all that, so they wouldn’t do the dumb non self protective shit you did!

    1. Bullshit. I live in NYC. And NYC cops have better things to do than harass the millions of people taking pictures with their camera phones. (Adolph Giuliani is gone. Take the 9/11 stick out of your ass.)

      1. Sheasie,

        If you REALLY live in New York City, you have heard of NY 1

        If you’re a regular viewer, you heard the report yesterday that the NYPD stopped and frisked 120,000 New Yorkers FOR NO REASON since the 1st of the year.

        If they can do that to folks with no Probable Cause and get away with it, imagine what they can do to somebody who did what this prick did.

        And, incidentally, the cops and the Loomis guards were in the right here.

        Criminals frequently case the sites they plan to rob beforehand.

        These days, it’s common for them to use things like iPhones.

        If you were an armored truck driver, and you saw some guy taking a picture of you while you were loading an ATM, what would YOU think?

        If you were a reasonable guard, you’d think that person was a robber, and they were putting your life at risk.

        Plenty of security officers have been murdered by robbers – these two guys didn’t want that to happen to them.

        So they did the right thing – and had this overentitled prick locked up.

        Again, he’s lucky he’s in Seattle – in NYC, it takes THREE TO FOUR DAYS to get out of jail.

        Now, maybe you wouldn’t know that because you either don’t actually live here, or you move in much richer or Whiter social circles than I do.

        So go to the NYCLU website and educate yourself!

      2. I do. I have. And I believe you are talking about the subway frisking? I was actually a featured story on NY1, once. I was stabbed in central park. When the cops finally showed up (about 20 minutes later), they threw me into their paddy wagon, and instead of taking me to the hospital, they drove like a bunch of monkeys through central park trying to find the guy who stabbed me — and this was AFTER i told them i could not see his face (he had stockings over is head).

        Anyway, I am not saying that the NYC cops aren’t retarded. I am just saying that they are not going to beat teh shit out of someone for taking a picture – they would have to beat too many people.

  134. While your mileage will vary in the state you are in this is what one police chief has to say:

    ***** Superintendent Dave Pickford, Windsor, Ontario, Canada Police Service

    “I am unaware of any laws that prohibit the taking of pictures of anything that is viewable in a public venue. The only restriction that I would see if a person was to take photographs of the interior of a private dwelling or business while on the public right of way. There is nothing to prohibit the taking of photos of buildings, public transit vehicles or even accidents. Although some people may find it distasteful in having their picture taken in public, I am unaware of anything that would prohibit it. The exception would be of course if someone is physically accosted or obstructed so that a picture can be taken.

    There may be restrictions on persons taking pictures where the public is welcome but the property is private, such as a mall or a sporting complex. Although the public is welcome, there may be restrictions on the taking of pictures…. it is best to check with the administrative staff that owns or controls the property.

    With that said, there is nothing to prohibit a person from taking civil action against a person for taking a picture especially if the picture is subsequently published in a less than favourable light. Whether or not the person succeeds is dependent on the courts.

    Bottom line……… if it is viewable to the public, I see nothing wrong with taking a picture of it.” – Superintendent Dave Pickford, Windsor, Ontario, Canada Police Service (http://ambientlight.ca/laws.php)

    You may be able to find similar statements or obtain them from police departments in the Seattle Area by visiting them and asking them about it. If you do please post the quote and link.

  135. The following seems to be a ‘reasonable’ approach. Unfortunately the glorified money delivery boys in this case allegedly didn’t even give Shane a chance to be “reasonable” as they threatened Shane with bodily harm before Shane really had a chance to said anything to them. Unless Washington State has become a dictatorship recently you don’t need to obey the commands of a glorified money delivery boy even if he has a very real gun. It might be prudent to obey him if the gun is drawn though…

    Would the following be considered a reasonable response in Seattle or anywhere else in the USA? Where would it not be considered reasonable?

    http://ambientlight.ca/laws.php
    What should I do when confronted?

    If you are confronted by a security guard, a private citizen, or a police officer, there will be a conversation. Assuming you have done nothing wrong, most of these conversations will follow similar lines, either: you took a photo of someone or something and they don’t appreciate it, or an authority (police officer, security guard, or property owner) believes you are causing trouble, or could cause trouble and wants to assess the situation. Regardless of the situation, there are some things that you can do to help the situation:

    * Smile and be jovial. Doesn’t hurt, and eases the mood.
    * If applicable, apologize for not knowing the policy. (See above Trespassing section: Unless there is a sign posted, the property is of a specific type, or you have been told previously, you have not broken any laws. If you are on private property and the land owner or their security guards are telling you not to take photos, or to leave, you must comply)
    * Be clear-headed. Use common sense.
    * Understand exactly what authority they have, and what rights you have. If they are owners of the property, they can limit your activities or presence on their property, just by telling you. (See the Trespassing section)
    * Try to figure out why they singled you out. Chances are that they’re picking on you because you have a huge SLR, which may be disruptive, and chances are that they leave everyone with point&shoot cameras, or camera phones alone. It is not uncommon for police or security guards to stop and ask you questions to gauge whether you are going to cause trouble.
    * If you are being confronted, there is a problem… solve the problem. If it’s something obvious, (Flash photography distracting others, or your photography interfering with the normal operations), then work with them to find a solution. Keep searching, a “no-photography” policy may not be the reason they are confronting you, but rather an easy reason to get you to stop without much trouble. Although you must stop taking photos if they ask you to, you can always talk to them and see if you can be granted an exception.
    * Be specific in your wording. Taking a few more seconds to think up the right word is much better than eating your words later.

    Do not:

    * Make a scene. The worst thing you can do is to call attention to the confrontation, that will force them to take more drastic measures, such as kicking you off the premises. If it’s a busy area, take the conversation to a more private area, where there is less pressure to solve the confrontation quickly, and a better possibility of reasoning with them.
    * Apologize for taking the photo. There’s no reason you should, you did nothing wrong.
    * Delete the photo. No reason you should. (This can defuse the situation, but implies to the other person that they have that authority over you, and they will expect the next photographer that comes along to delete their photo too.)
    * Be defensive or offensive. Defensiveness implies that you think you have done something wrong and are trying to back out of it, Offensiveness will put them on the defensive, neither will help in reaching a positive solution.
    * Tell them they can’t do something (like a private citizen kicking you out of a public park)
    * Blow things out of proportion, embellish, bend the truth or lie.
    * Be hysterical. Even if everyone else has a camera, there is no reason they should apply this rule to everyone else, but there is a reason they’re picking on you. Find out why. Property owners (and security guards working for them) can enforce rules on a per-person basis, as they please.
    * Be accusing. There is no reason they should put up a “no photography” sign, this is not their fault. Telling you is just as effective as putting up a sign in the eyes of the law, however, prior to them telling you that photography is not allowed, it was implied that photography was allowed, so legally, you are on solid ground, as long as you don’t take a photo after they tell you not to.
    Trespass to Property Act, 4.(2):
    Where entry on premises is not prohibited under section 3 or by notice that one or more particular activities are permitted under subsection (1), and notice is given that a particular activity is prohibited, that activity and entry for the purpose is prohibited and all other activities and entry for the purpose are not prohibited. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 4 (2).
    * Stay in a situation which could cause you or your equipment harm. It’s assault, but it’s assault that you can avoid.
    Criminal Code, 264.1 (1) (“Assault”):
    Every one commits an offence who, in any manner, knowingly utters, conveys or causes any person to receive a threat
    (a) to cause death or bodily harm to any person;
    (b) to burn, destroy or damage real or personal property;
    * Answer unnecessary questions or accusations. eg: “Do you go around taking photos of children everywhere?” Answering this will do you no good. Refusing to answer this will do you no good. Change the line of questioning.
    * Say “No”. Try proposing alternatives, and steering the conversation into something that benefits you. Saying “No” will make you seem uncooperative and standoffish.
    * Ignore them. Stopping the conversation will not get you anywhere.

    If the situation develops into something more serious: (If you are asked to leave the property, leave, and ask the following information as you are leaving.)

    * Get their full name, and if applicable, employee or badge number.
    * Their manager’s or supervisor’s name, contact information, and hours
    * Find out as much as possible about why: Is it a policy? What does the policy say? Who created it, why was it created, and when?
    * The time and date
    * From there, follow up and call the manager or property owner, and tell them what happened. If other people were there taking photos with point&shoot cameras, mention it, and say that you feel discriminated against. It is likely that they won’t know the exact details about the event, however, most security guards are required to keep notes and file reports, so it can be looked up, if it matters. See if you can come to an understanding with the manager or property owner and arrange permission.

  136. Hi, a web site of a legal firm in NYC who seem equipped to deal with issues facing photographers there.

    http://www.photosandthelaw.com/tag/photography-law/

    They have a great photo gallery too.

    All the best, pwl

    ps. I lived in Battery Park City for almost a year in 92/93 and was blocks away from the WTC, walking to lunch a block away, when the first attack occurred in 93 and witnessed the aftermath. I feel a strong connection to NYC. Don’t let the Jack Boots get you down, fight for your freedom from State Based Terrorists at all levels of government and private goons!

  137. Videos of ATM Machines having money swapped!

    http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=4498716824675470065&ei=cNMLSqiqHqqwqAOw-vSLDQ&q=atm+security&hl=en

    Stock Video of ATM Machine having money changed!
    http://www.istockphoto.com/file_closeup/business/business-backgrounds/7932156-loading-cash-dollars-money-into-atm-machine-credit-card-banking.php?id=7932156

    ATMs for SALE! Buy your own and learn everything there is to know!
    http://video.yahoo.com/watch/4695827/12548056

    ATM Guards are considered PRIME SUSPECTS, and in this case were caught.

    ;–)

    Security Guard Threatens Patrons at ATM Clip
    http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6328926988526429965&ei=cNMLSqiqHqqwqAOw-vSLDQ&q=atm+security&hl=en

    They are following you!
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2097217/atm_machines_funny_commercial/

    Well, there are many more… you get the point. Get some perspective REI dudes.

  138. Hi, a friend of my was arrested for protesting logging of 400 year old trees in British Columbia. The RCMP officer asked him to turn off his camera; my friend pretended to and continued filming the incident. Turn on your cameras even when ordered to turn them off! Protect yourself, protect others with a memory of the events!

    Here are some videos from people who did.

    pwl

    Searching The Google Intertubes for “security guard harass photographer” (http://video.google.ca/videosearch?hl=en&safe=off&num=100&newwindow=1&q=security%20guard%20harrass%20photographer&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#) turns up over 160,000 hits with this one being quite annoying:

    http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2008/04/video-clueless/

    http://vimeo.com/1711364
    Photographers and Videographers have a LEGAL RIGHT to take photographs and videos unimpeded in any street in the UK. Despite the law being clear on a citizen’s rights to freely take pictures in public there is growing evidence that the police, police community support officers (PCSOs) and security guards are failing to respect the rights of photographers to legally take Street shots.
    If you’re on a public right of way – such as a public pavement, footpath or public highway – you’re free to take photographs for personal and commercial use so long as you’re not causing an obstruction to other users or (VERY UNLIKELY) falling foul of anti-Terrorism laws or the Official Secrets Act). Property owners have no right to stop people taking photos of their buildings, so long as the photographer is standing in a public place (e.g. on the road outside). Most shopping centers and malls stand on private land with many gaining a notorious reputation for speedily dispatching stroppy security guards demanding that you stop taking photos.

    ******* The irony that they’re already busy filming you from every angle via a flotilla of CCTV cameras is generally lost on them. SECURITY GUARDS DO NOT HAVE STOP AND SEARCH POWERS or the right to seize your equipment or delete images or confiscate film under any circumstances.*******

  139. Seriously what kind of idiocracy has America come to. Man I dont want to go take a picture of the birds outside my house it might be a question of american sercurity. I dont get these rent-a-cop with there ass hat attitude. that sucks that happend to you.
    jradke138.wordpress.com

  140. I am a lawyer. I live to send companies like this tumbling down Mt. Hubris. It would make my year to sue the living shit out of every bad actor in this story. Feel free to get in touch.

  141. Well look on the bright side, at least at the end of the day you had something out of the ordinary to talk about. Only problem is that if you were contemplating suing, the time it would take to be processed would be ridiculous- going by the amount of effort they went through to be “right” during this whole photo discrepancy.
    I’m glad to have come across your blog, Shane, and am keen to read what more shenanigans you find yourself in! Cheers 🙂

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